My Battle

[HomeTeamFamily]

ok so tonite while talking to my ex girlfriend who is a presby......i was challenged to "state my claim to truth" to her face and stop "hiding behind instant messenger"

that being said, i think i want to take her up on this but i need a solid background in Scripture for the following topics

--authority of the church/primacy of peter
--against predestination/being "saved"

i think i can hold my own when it comes to logically arguing these two but i know she is going to want some scripture so i plan on looking through phatcatholics section for these two things but if anyone else has anything that they particularly like or think would work good please feel free to let me know what they are

also please pray for me!!!!

thanks pham

adam

[StColette]

Church and authority

Acts 2:41-42... doctrine, community, sacred rite (bread).

41 They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.
42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers.

Eph 5:25-33... Christ loved the Church.

25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it:
26 That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:
27 That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his
wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church:
30 Because we are members of him, body, of his flesh and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother: and shall cleave to his wife. And they shall be two in one flesh.
32 This is a great sacrament: but I speak in Christ and in the church.
33 Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular love for his wife as himself: And let the wife fear her husband.

1 Tim 3:15 ... church is pillar/foundation of truth.

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Mt 16:18... Christ protects Church.

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Heb 13:17 ... obey.

17 Obey your prelates and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls: that they may do this with joy and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Mt 18:17-19 ... church as final authority.

17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.

Papacy/infallibility

Mt 10:1-4

1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.
2 And the names of the twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother,
3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mk 3:16-19

16 And to Simon he gave the name Peter:
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he named them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder.
18 And Andrew and Philip, and Bartholomew and Matthew, and Thomas and James of Alpheus, and Thaddeus and Simon the Cananean:
19 And Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Lk 6:14-16

14 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes,
16 And Jude the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

Acts 1:13

13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus and Simon Zelotes and Jude the brother of James.

... Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.

Mk 8:29

29 Then he saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ.

Lk 12:41

41 And Peter said to him: Lord, dost thou speak this parable to us, or likewise to all?

Jn 6:68-69

68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.

... Peter speaks for the apostles.

Acts 2:14-40 ... Pentecost: Peter who first preached.

14 But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you and with your ears receive my words.

Acts 3:6-7 ... Peter worked first healing.

6 But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise and walk.
7 And taking him by the right hand, he lifted him up: and forthwith his feet and soles received strength.

Acts 10:46-48 ... Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.

46 For they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God.
47 Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

Jn 1:42 ... Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).

42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona. Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

Mt 16:18-19 ... "on this Rock ... keys ... bind ... loose"

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Rev 1:18 ... keys as symbol of authority.

18 And alive, and was dead. And behold I am living for ever and ever and have the keys of death and of hell.

Jn 21:17 ... "feed my sheep"

17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Lk 22:31-32 ... "Simon ... strengthen your brethren".

31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

Lk 10:1-2

1 And after these things, the Lord appointed also other seventy-two. And he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come.
2 And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest that he send labourers into his harvest.

Jn 13:20

20 Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

2 Cor 5:20

20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

Gal 4:14

14 You despised not, nor rejected: but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Acts 5:1-5

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Saphira his wife, sold a piece of land,
2 And by fraud kept back part of the price of the land, his wife being privy thereunto: and bringing a certain part of it, laid it at the feet of the apostles.
3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost and by fraud keep part of the price of the land?
4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? And after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God.
5 And Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it.

... "vicars" (substitutes) of Christ.

Mk 6:20

20 For Herod feared John, knowing him to be a just and holy man: and kept him, and when he heard him, did many things: and he heard him willingly.

Lk 1:70,2:23

70 As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, who are from the beginning.

2:23 As it is written in the law of the Lord: Every male opening the womb shall be called holy to the Lord:

Rom 12:1

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service

Act 3:21

21 Whom heaven indeed must receive, until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets, from the beginning of the world.

1 Cor 7:14

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife: and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband. Otherwise your children should be unclean: but now they are holy.

Eph 3:5

5 Which in other generations was not known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit:

Col 1:22

22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted and blameless before him:

... humans can be holy ("call no one holy").

The information for which verses to use were provided by this site [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WALLET.HTM"]THE CATHOLIC APOLOGIST'S SCRIPTURAL CHEAT SHEET[/url]

God Bless,
Jennie

Edited July 8, 2004 by StColette

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Oh man, Jennie ROCKS!

[StColette]

rofl ty Raphael so do you lol

Edited July 8, 2004 by StColette

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Catholic view of predestination:
[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM[/url]
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm[/url]
[quote]1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God's foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God's elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God's commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).[/quote]

The Church in Patrology:
[url="http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_church.htm"]http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_church.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_primacy_of_rome.htm"]http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_primacy_of_rome.htm[/url]
[quote][u]Ignatius of Antioch[/u] (Disciple of John the Apostle)
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, [b]but others have you taught[/b]. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).[/quote]
[quote][u]Irenaeus of Lyons[/u] (Disciple of Polycarp, who was a Disciple of John the Apostle)
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the [b]greatest and most ancient church known to all[/b], founded and [b]organized at Rome[/b] by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, [b]that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles[/b]. [b]With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree[/b], that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and [b]it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition[/b] (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).[/quote]

Faith and Works in Patrology:
[url="http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_justification.htm"]http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_justification.htm[/url]

Justification in Scripture:
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html[/url]

Salvation in Scripture:
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html[/url]

Edited July 8, 2004 by thedude

[Guest JeffCR07]

It looks like these two have you covered, so I'll do the best thing possible at this point: pray .

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff