Catholics & Non-Catholics Dialogue Thread

[Clean Water]

26 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

Even if it challenges your religious convictuons 

 

*convictions

27 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

17 minutes video 

 

*minute

[Peace]

On 2/28/2021 at 11:24 PM, Clean Water said:

*convictions

*minute

What ethnicity are you?

[Clean Water]

3 hours ago, Peace said:

What ethnicity are you?

White. And I'm not saying you assume this about me...but I want to note I'm not a liberal. I'm in the middle politically. I don't think it's my responsibility to speak for Black people and tell everyone how bad they've had it. I don't think all White people need to confess how racist they are and live with guilt. Now that's out of the way...As a Catholic I do think it's my responsibility to speak up about the points I've made in this thread. And these aren't things I'm coming up with on my own. They are things I've mainly learned from listening to Black Catholics and studying history. And also just observing the situation as a Catholic and how divided things are. I do think racism is something you have to work on everyday because of how conditioned we are to just accept it as the norm. I don't feel like going back and quoting your old posts but you had some great points on this when you talked about leaving the country and coming back. And some other things you said.

[Peace]

48 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

White. And I'm not saying you assume this about me...but I want to note I'm not a liberal. I'm in the middle politically. I don't think it's my responsibility to speak for Black people and tell everyone how bad they've had it. I don't think all White people need to confess how racist they are and live with guilt. Now that's out of the way...As a Catholic I do think it's my responsibility to speak up about the points I've made in this thread. And these aren't things I'm coming up with on my own. They are things I've mainly learned from listening to Black Catholics and studying history. And also just observing the situation as a Catholic and how divided things are. I do think racism is something you have to work on everyday because of how conditioned we are to just accept it as the norm. I don't feel like going back and quoting your old posts but you had some great points on this when you talked about leaving the country and coming back. And some other things you said.

Oh my gooooodness a "White Ally" (registered trademark)? Here on Phatmass?

Yeah white allies are cool I suppose but most of ya'll are using the cause of black people to signal your own virtue and feel good about yourselves, to be frank.  I am not saying that this applies to you in particular, however. The verdict is out.

I foolishly assumed that you were black because you put some black children in your avatar and have spent most of your time here educating all of us about the struggle of the black man in America.

But then I went back and re-read what you wrote, and thought otherwise.

It's all good.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Peace

[Clean Water]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

I folishly assumed that you were black because you put some black children in your avatar

Those are kids from a village in Uganda I helped get clean water. Along with the two Pastors I mentioned earlier in the thread. Not virtual signaling but we've helped a bunch of villages get clean water in the last 3 years. The need for clean water is great over there. If anyone reading this wants to help out let me know.

[Clean Water]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

and have spent most of your time here educating all of us about the struggle of the black man in America.

My aim was to call out the blatant white supremacy of Catholics. Not so much the struggle in America ect. But I pry got off track at times. Being Catholic is cool but most a lot of us didn't sign up for the white supremacy attached with it. As the author made clear in the Black Catholic Messenger article. Catholics are free to ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Whatever floats their boat I guess. People will just find other places to fellowship and Bishop Strickland and the like can preach to the choir. 

Anyways that's enough Phatmass for me. I'll let you guys get back to the regular trad scheduled program. Anyone who wants to help villages get clean water in Uganda follow me on IG @catholichiphop and send a DM. Peace and God bless.

[Peace]

16 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

My aim was to call out the blatant white supremacy of Catholics. Not so much the struggle in America ect. But I pry got off track at times. Being Catholic is cool but most a lot of us didn't sign up for the white supremacy attached with it.

But that's cool I guess. You are Catholic and you saw a problem with the Catholic Church and you wanted to do something about it, in your own way.

16 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

As the author made clear in the Black Catholic Messenger article. Catholics are free to ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Whatever floats their boat I guess. People will just find other places to fellowship and Bishop Strickland and the like can preach to the choir. 

I don't think it is a problem that the Church is ignoring. There are some Catholics who ignore the problem, sure. But it seems that the Church is working on this problem just like America is generally.

16 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

Anyways that's enough Phatmass for me. I'll let you guys get back to the regular trad scheduled program. Anyone who wants to help villages get clean water in Uganda follow me on IG @catholichiphop and send a DM. Peace and God bless.

Wait a second. You just rolled into a Trad-leaning forum to write 4 posts about the plight of the black Catholic, and now you are done with Phatmass and you are just gonna roll out?

And you want us to follow your Instagram?

Come on now.

[Clean Water]

25 minutes ago, Peace said:

Wait a second. You just rolled into a Trad-leaning forum to write 4 posts about the plight of the black Catholic, and now you are done with Phatmass and you are just gonna roll out?

And you want us to follow your Instagram?

Come on now.

People say "lol" a lot and don't really mean it in the true sense. But this actually made me laugh out loud. It was good. I'm almost at 10 k followers. I need to get there. But getting back on topic...I'm a very self aware person. I completely grasp how white people come off speaking on this stuff. And I've clashed with some of them especially on Facebook. When Ruth Ginsburg died and they were calling her the Notorious RBG I was like hold on. This woman tried to make it possible for the ACTUAL Notorious BIG to be aborted in the womb. Don't say Black Lives Matter then leave out all the Black babies. So I get how empty a lot of white people can seem talking about these things. In my opinion that doesn't mean the correct response is for all white people to shut up about it. But my respect for you as an actual Black man who has experienced life here ect is very high. It remains high even if you think white people should shut up about this stuff because it's not genuine. For the most part I've found Black people supportive and wanting the "allies" to speak out. But I have come across the opposite opinion and I humbly respect it and listen to what's being said. On that note I do want to check out of Phatmass for awhile but will return in the future. All the trad topics ect is a near occasion of sin for me. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Man imagine how people will freak out if there is ever another real Trad debate around here.

[Clean Water]

3 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Man imagine how people will freak out if there is ever another real Trad debate around here.

I'm not under the illusion there are no good trads haha I just think now more than ever they need to speak up when they see the racism from members out in the open. And the troubling thing for me is I see none of them calling it out. It's like they are in agreement with it. When Timothy Gordon or Father Altman go off there are no bold trads saying hold on a second. It's a bunch of agreement and Amens. But like I said I still know there are trads out there who aren't like this. But it's such a small fragment that it's tough to see them or hear them.

[Nihil Obstat]

Probably because the good ones have mostly abandoned internet debates as a cesspool of vice and a near occasion of sin.

[Peace]

7 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

People say "lol" a lot and don't really mean it in the true sense. But this actually made me laugh out loud. It was good. I'm almost at 10 k followers. I need to get there. But getting back on topic...I'm a very self aware person. I completely grasp how white people come off speaking on this stuff. And I've clashed with some of them especially on Facebook. When Ruth Ginsburg died and they were calling her the Notorious RBG I was like hold on. This woman tried to make it possible for the ACTUAL Notorious BIG to be aborted in the womb. Don't say Black Lives Matter then leave out all the Black babies. So I get how empty a lot of white people can seem talking about these things. In my opinion that doesn't mean the correct response is for all white people to shut up about it. But my respect for you as an actual Black man who has experienced life here ect is very high. It remains high even if you think white people should shut up about this stuff because it's not genuine. For the most part I've found Black people supportive and wanting the "allies" to speak out. But I have come across the opposite opinion and I humbly respect it and listen to what's being said. On that note I do want to check out of Phatmass for awhile but will return in the future. All the trad topics ect is a near occasion of sin for me. 

It's not that I want white people to shut up per se, or that I think all of you are not genuine. I'm sure plenty of ya'll are genuine.

One big thing is that there is a huge amount of diversity within black America itself. So if you put yourself in a position where you look like you are attempting to speak on behalf of, or for the benefit of black people, most of us are gonna take offense if we don't agree with the particular medicine that you ascribing. We are gonna be like "who is this white person trying to speak for my interests as a black person, all of us do not believe that." You gotta be careful with it as an outsider.

[Clean Water]

9 minutes ago, Peace said:

One big thing is that there is a huge amount of diversity within black America itself. So if you put yourself in a position where you look like you are attempting to speak on behalf of, or for the benefit of black people, most of us are gonna take offense if we don't agree with the particular medicine that you ascribing. We are gonna be like "who is this white person trying to speak for my interests as a black person, all of us do not believe that." You gotta be careful with it as an outsider.

This X a 1000. I get it and wish more people did. Tbh I really only got vocal about these issues when I seen it in the Church. Like it's always been there since Scripture was quoting Jesus as giving parables about beating servants. But I never really grasped how big of a problem it really is. Like I said I wasn't even aware of it growing up and in my 20's. But I completely get where you are coming from with white people trying to take the lead and be the spokesperson and whatnot. I've seen it and I've cringed. Kanye had a great interview over the summer talking about how the most racist are the white liberals. I don't know if I completely agree after seeing the maga cults antics but I get what he's saying. And I shut up and listen. It's the same for me dealing with these issues in the Church. I'm shutting up and listening to what Black Catholics like Gloria Purvis and Nate are saying. And then you will also have a Black Catholic like David Grey who comes and opposes all of it. Says there's no problem. But then of course Black Catholic Messenger shines light and truth on the situation: https://www.blackcatholicmessenger.com/grn-adds-david-l-gray/

Guadalupe Radio Network adds (extreme) Black Traditionalist to the air

By Nate Tinner-Williams - January 04, 2021

In an unsurprising turn of events, Guadalupe Radio Network has added a new ultra-conservative voice to their airwaves, but there’s an interesting twist: it's an African-American.

David L. Gray, a Traditionalist Catholic podcaster and YouTuber, has been added to the GRN lineup for 2021, with a start date of January 13th on their more than 37 stations across the US.

Gray announced the news in November, just months after GRN dropped “Morning Glory” from their stations following listener backlash toward certain aspects of the show—namely, Gloria Purvis’ outspoken anti-racism, which clashed on occasion with her more conservative co-hosts.

According to a video interview from 2011 and a deleted Wikipedia article, Gray is a former Freemason convicted of embezzlement in 2004 who served six years in prison, where he converted from agnosticism to Catholicism and began to write apologetics books.

Since his release, he has amassed nearly 21,000 YouTube subscribers (up from a few thousand earlier last year) and nearly 12,000 followers on Facebook, peddling a variety of Far Right and Traditionalist talking points.

He also runs Traditionalist hubs Saint Dominic Media and My Catholic Tube.

He claims to have collaborated on a novena to Venerable Fr Augustus Tolton with Chicago’s auxiliary bishop Joseph Perry, the diocesan postulator for Tolton’s cause. (A document put out by the official Tolton guild in 2013, however, only mentions Gray as the novena's creator, and the novena website—run by Gray—only says Perry "approved and blessed" it.)

Unlike Purvis (and virtually all Black Catholics), Gray is an outspoken critic of the popular conception of racism, arguing that EWTN’s (and presumably GRN’s) decision to drop her show likely does not qualify.

In fact, he calls the prevailing notion “emotional racism”, in which, according to Gray, people wrongly accuse others of racism simply because of how they feel about something said or done to them.

That said, he considers Gloria Purvis to be, in his own words, a “social justice warrior”.

He also considers his position on race and racism “the authentically Catholic perspective”, and has shared it with at least one diocesan young adult’s group (in the diocese of Raleigh).

In July, Gray went so far as to claim supporters of Black Lives Matter—“organization”, “hashtag”, or “mantra”—have incurred excommunication.

Last Fall, Gray publicly endorsed Fr James Altman after his homiletical tirade(s) that were condemned by his bishop. He thereafter had Altman on his show—twice.

In November, he joined the parade of Far-Right extremists attempting to reverse the certified election of soon-to-be president Joe Biden, and just a few days ago referred to Argentinian pro-choice protesters as “demons”.

Due to promoting such positions (and general discord) within the 2,300-member “Black & Catholic” Facebook group, he was removed earlier this year, according to sources. (Gray recounted this experience in a podcast episode with fellow Black Traditionalist Bobby Hesley in late November.)

Given these and other incidents concerning Gray’s fringe talking points (and voracious White audience), perhaps critics of GRN’s decision to drop “Morning Glory” weren’t so emotional after all.

Nate Tinner-Williams is co-founder of Black Catholic Messenger, a priesthood applicant with the Josephites, and a ThM student w/ the Institute for Black Catholic Studies at Xavier University of Louisiana (XULA).

 

[chrysostom]

5 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Probably because the good ones have mostly abandoned internet debates as a cesspool of vice and a near occasion of sin.

I have one friend in real life who goes hard for conservative facebook. Her friends, mostly conservatives, all think she needs to get off and calm down.

I myself need to check Phatmass less often. Especially now in Lent. sorry dust...

 

[Nihil Obstat]

1 hour ago, chrysostom said:

I have one friend in real life who goes hard for conservative facebook. Her friends, mostly conservatives, all think she needs to get off and calm down.

I myself need to check Phatmass less often. Especially now in Lent. sorry dust...

 

I have friends all across the spectrum. In real life and online. In recent years I try to practice the virtue of silence more than I used to.

I find it a good exercise to ask myself, "did anyone ask for my opinion? Does anyone want my opinion? Will anyone benefit from hearing my opinion?" When the answer is no, as it often is, I try to act accordingly.

My being here at all is therefore ironic and I accept it as a public mark of my lack of humility.