Catholics & Non-Catholics Dialogue Thread

[Era Might]

Since not everyone on Phatmass is Catholic or Christian, and not all Catholics agree with each other or even see the world from the same vantage point, I'd like to open a dialogue thread for an inter-religious dialogue. The purpose of this thread is not debate specifically, although it may include debate, but instead to propose your view of God and of the world that we live in, here and now, and what, if anything, you would propose to other human beings living in this world.

If you're Catholic, this is your chance to make a defense for the relevance of your religion, in reality and not in theory, and *to be challenged* with other points of view, either from non-Catholics or from other Catholics who see the world differently. If you are only on Phatmass to discuss Catholicism on its own terms, or on your own terms, then this is not the thread for you.

The purpose of this thread is not to "convert" anyone to anything, but to question each other, question ourselves, and ask whether we are actually living in the same world, or whether we are all locked inside separate realities with no hope of finding common ground. I start this thread in accordance with the Catholic Church's own request at the Second Vatican Council:

"The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

--Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions "Nostra Aetate"

If you consider yourself a Christian or a believer in God, then the purpose of this thread is to ask who is this God we believe in, and whether we can call ourselves brothers, or whether we are in fact enemies. This is not the thread for Catholics to debate intra-Catholic politics like traditionalism, etc. The focus should remain on more fundamental questions about God and religion, what it means to believe in God in 2021, what is expected of us as believers and/or as human beings in a global world of 8 billion people.

If you're not interested in this discussion, then that's fine, and I don't know if anyone will be interested, but if you *are* interested, please engage in the thread in the spirit of what I laid out above. I will follow up with some thoughts of my own to get us started.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Era Might

[Era Might]

I don't want to start with too many thoughts, although I have a lot to say, because I don't know where others are interested in taking the discussion. I'm open to discussing on different levels: spiritual, historical, theological, philosophical, etc.

I'll start with some well-known remarks by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, because I saw it quoted in another thread:

"Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be 'tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine', seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires."

So, my first proposal for discussion to Catholics is, if we are living in a "dictatorship of relativism," what is the alternative? I would argue that we are living in a world that has been in progress for 500 years, what we broadly call "modernity." The popular Catholic worldview is theoretical medievalism, and that worldview often (not always) fails to live in historical reality. Catholics often (not always) are in a flight from reality, and this is not unique to Catholicism but Christianity in general.

We all live in societies built on many different historical contradictions. So, for example, you have American Catholics who live comfortably and proudly in a country that, historically, was born out of a revolt from everything which Catholicism stands for. The basis of this country, and of modernity more generally, is an individualism which destroys historical continuity; in capitalism this is known as "creative destruction," the constant drive for decentralization and innovation. Many Catholics recognize this and retreat into traditionalism which is further removed from historical reality, similar to end-times fundamentalists in Protestantism.

But the focus of these opening thoughts is on this idea of a "dictatorship of relativism." This idea has a certain ring of truth to it, and yet, what is the alternative? Theocracy as in Iran? White nationalist populism/fundamentalism as in Trump's America? etc. What Ratzinger calls a dictatorship of relativism is, in a historical context, simply the free market in all its glory, with no centralized direction in history, but everyone competing in a sort of miniature historical process, where the only thing we hold in common is material interest, the need to be productive in nature. I don't know that Catholics have an alternative that actually works in reality, though I sympathize with many of their concerns.

I'll leave it there, feel free to pick up the discussion from any angle that interests you, this is not meant to be a linear discussion.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Era Might

[Peace]

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

So, my first proposal for discussion to Catholics is, if we are living in a "dictatorship of relativism," what is the alternative?

The alternative is to recognize that there is objective truth and to seek to live according to it.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I would argue that we are living in a world that has been in progress for 500 years, what we broadly call "modernity."

Much of that progress is due to the Catholic Church, and all progress is ultimately by the grace of God.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

The popular Catholic worldview is theoretical medievalism,

False.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

and that worldview often (not always) fails to live in historical reality. Catholics often (not always) are in a flight from reality, and this is not unique to Catholicism but Christianity in general.

No, it is the atheists and others who deny the truth, which is the Catholic faith, and who fail to live in this reality and flee from their obligations towards God and man. Hopefully they will choose to live according to truth, before it is too late.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

We all live in societies built on many different historical contradictions. So, for example, you have American Catholics who live comfortably and proudly in a country that, historically, was born out of a revolt from everything which Catholicism stands for. The basis of this country, and of modernity more generally, is an individualism which destroys historical continuity; in capitalism this is known as "creative destruction," the constant drive for decentralization and innovation. Many Catholics recognize this and retreat into traditionalism which is further removed from historical reality, similar to end-times fundamentalists in Protestantism.

Perhaps, but here you would need to define "traditionalism". That terms means different things to different people.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

But the focus of these opening thoughts is on this idea of a "dictatorship of relativism." This idea has a certain ring of truth to it, and yet, what is the alternative? Theocracy as in Iran? White nationalist populism/fundamentalism as in Trump's America? etc.

Again, the alternative is to recognize that there is objective truth and to seek to live according to it.

44 minutes ago, Era Might said:

What Ratzinger calls a dictatorship of relativism is, in a historical context, simply the free market in all its glory, with no centralized direction in history, but everyone competing in a sort of miniature historical process, where the only thing we hold in common is material interest, the need to be productive in nature. I don't know that Catholics have an alternative that actually works in reality, though I sympathize with many of their concerns.

No, the free market does not presuppose that there is no such thing as objective truth. The free market is not an implementation of relativism. Free-market mechanisms are oriented toward discovering truth through decentralizing decision making, wherein the people responsible for making decisions suffer the consequences for their mistakes, and reap the benefits when they are correct, and are thus incentivized to make correct decisions.

 

[Era Might]

For everyone else: I've ignored Peace and all his posts, I can't see them anymore, please use his posts as an example of what this thread is NOT meant to be, and please don't follow him down his rabbit holes. Thanks.

[Ice_nine]

29 minutes ago, Era Might said:

For everyone else: I've ignored Peace and all his posts, I can't see them anymore, please use his posts as an example of what this thread is NOT meant to be, and please don't follow him down his rabbit holes. Thanks.

"I can't see his posts but I know what he said."

That would've made about as much sense.

[Era Might]

1 minute ago, Ice_nine said:

"I can't see his posts but I know what he said."

That would've made about as much sense.

Huh?

I don't know what he said and I don't care what he said. I don't like him and I don't want to deal with him.

If you want to do a bullet by bullet debate, go to the debate phorum and start your thread. If you can't have a grown people conversation and take the time to discuss, then this isn't the thread for you.

If you're not interested in the purpose of this thread, which is to actually have a conversation about things, then ignore it.

[Peace]

3 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Huh?

I don't know what he said and I don't care what he said. I don't like him and I don't want to deal with him.

If you want to do a bullet by bullet debate, go to the debate phorum and start your thread. If you can't have a grown people conversation and take the time to discuss, then this isn't the thread for you.

If you're not interested in the purpose of this thread, which is to actually have a conversation about things, then ignore it.

Oh please Era. How childish are you? You know and everyone else knows plenty well that you are reading my posts.

You wrote that Catholics in this thread should expect to be challenged. Well, you should expect to have your error challenged and corrected as well.

You wrote error. I corrected them, and I will keep on doing so as long as I please. Grow a set and get over it.

[Ice_nine]

You said not to follow him down his rabbit holes. How do you know there are rabbit holes to even go down?

Good luck finding what you're looking for. I don't often know what on earth you're trying to get at. Your posts seem almost purposefully opaque at times. At other times you make claims that seem to have no basis in the real world outside of whatever ivory tower you're sitting in.

Maybe I am not intellectual enough. That used to bother me. Used to want to be one of the smart and sophisticated ones. Now it doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Era Might]

Just now, Ice_nine said:

You said not to follow him down his rabbit holes. How do you know there are rabbit holes to even go down?

Good luck finding what you're looking for. I don't often know what on earth you're trying to get at. Your posts seem almost purposefully opaque at times. At other times you make claims that seem to have no basis in the real world outside of whatever ivory tower you're sitting in.

Maybe I am not intellectual enough. That used to bother me. Used to want to be one of the smart and sophisticated ones. Now it doesn't seem worth it to me.

Thanks, sounds like this isn't the thread for you. Take care.

[Ice_nine]

1 minute ago, Era Might said:

Thanks, sounds like this isn't the thread for you. Take care.

I think you're overestimating the control you have over this. It kinda seems like a kid is trying to start a club that no one really wants to be in and starts whinging when the only people that show up don't fit his vision. 

I'm only here to poke and prod and have a little bit of fun.

[Peace]

3 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I think you're overestimating the control you have over this. It kinda seems like a kid is trying to start a club that no one really wants to be in and starts whinging when the only people that show up don't fit his vision. 

I'm only here to poke and prod and have a little bit of fun.

He just wants to bloviate, feed his ego, and attack the Catholic Church. I think that should be obvious by now. Whenever he tries to do this I call him out on this BS and refute him. Then he cries like a child and says "I was just hoping to have a nice discussion" because he can't offer a substantive response to my critique. It's ridiculous.

[Ice_nine]

well we all like to feed our ego from time to time. I've been asking God to cleave my pride away from me. It's probably gonna take a lil bit.

[Era Might]

1 minute ago, Ice_nine said:

I think you're overestimating the control you have over this. It kinda seems like a kid is trying to start a club that no one really wants to be in and starts whinging when the only people that show up don't fit his vision. 

I'm only here to poke and prod and have a little bit of fun.

Nobody is whining. If you're not interested in the thread, then go to another one. This is a phorum. I started a thread for discussion. Some of us like discussing things. If that's not your thing, then please don't waste my time telling me how much of a stupid loser I am, or try to derail the thread because you're not interested in it. If nobody is interested then it will die away. @dUSt said in a recent post that Phatmass is a place for discussion, so I took him up on that. Please respect my thread, there's a whole phorum for you and your clique to talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

well we all like to feed our ego from time to time.

This is true. I would say for me, feeding my anger is the main culprit.

2 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Nobody is whining.

You are delusional.

Your third post is practically the definition of whining: "Please nobody read what Peace wrote because he refuted my nonsense."

[Era Might]

Getting back to the discussion of the thread, I'd like to add to my OP a more recent exhortation of the church, not merely to engage in inter-religious dialogue, but to find the common basis of all humanity which comes before religion. In traditional theology this was regarded as the covenants of Noah or Abraham, a universal covenant between God and all peoples regardless of religion. This is the purpose of discussion and dialogue, I think. As I asked in my OP, are we brothers or enemies in the 21st century, and if brothers, what is the basis of this brotherhood, divided as we are by borders, languages, races, religions, wealth, class, etc.? I'll add here a passage from Pope Francis' recent Encyclical which doesn't shy away from provoking these direct conversations:

LACKING A PLAN FOR EVERYONE

15. The best way to dominate and gain control over people is to spread despair and discouragement, even under the guise of defending certain values. Today, in many countries, hyperbole, extremism and polarization have become political tools. Employing a strategy of ridicule, suspicion and relentless criticism, in a variety of ways one denies the right of others to exist or to have an opinion. Their share of the truth and their values are rejected and, as a result, the life of society is impoverished and subjected to the hubris of the powerful. Political life no longer has to do with healthy debates about long-term plans to improve people’s lives and to advance the common good, but only with slick marketing techniques primarily aimed at discrediting others. In this craven exchange of charges and counter-charges, debate degenerates into a permanent state of disagreement and confrontation.

16. Amid the fray of conflicting interests, where victory consists in eliminating one’s opponents, how is it possible to raise our sights to recognize our neighbours or to help those who have fallen along the way? A plan that would set great goals for the development of our entire human family nowadays sounds like madness. We are growing ever more distant from one another, while the slow and demanding march towards an increasingly united and just world is suffering a new and dramatic setback.

17. To care for the world in which we live means to care for ourselves. Yet we need to think of ourselves more and more as a single family dwelling in a common home. Such care does not interest those economic powers that demand quick profits. Often the voices raised in defence of the environment are silenced or ridiculed, using apparently reasonable arguments that are merely a screen for special interests. In this shallow, short-sighted culture that we have created, bereft of a shared vision, “it is foreseeable that, once certain resources have been depleted, the scene will be set for new wars, albeit under the guise of noble claims”.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Era Might