Good Morning Phatmass

[chrysostom]

My area code lets me know where all the spam calls come from.

[Peace]

7 hours ago, MIKolbe said:

steady mobbin' the 724

724? What is that Monroeville or some ish?

[Guest]

On 2/22/2021 at 5:26 PM, Machine_Washable said:

We are all works in progress!

Precisely a poster I have up on one of my walls here  

                   Peace be to you and yours too.

[Machine_Washable]

21 hours ago, Peace said:

A big Canadian city? Man you live in Toronto stop fronting! I live in Alexandria VA but from PA originally.

You got me! 

[MIKolbe]

12 hours ago, Peace said:

724? What is that Monroeville or some ish?

nah son... Hopewell, Corrie, Aliquippa

[Peace]

3 hours ago, MIKolbe said:

nah son... Hopewell, Corrie, Aliquippa

I remember the quips having some decent football teams back in the day.

[Ice_nine]

On 2/21/2021 at 8:30 AM, Machine_Washable said:

Hello Phatmass. My name is Razi. I used to occasionally lurk here many years ago and decided to see if this website was still active. For full disclosure, I’m not Catholic and am not interested in becoming Catholic. I am a Muslim. I’m happy to respond to questions or whatever to the extent that I can but I am not a scholar and I am not interested in arguing. So that is my introduction!

ok no arguing per se . . . let me ask then. Why is Muhammad the greatest man to ever live and worthy of emulation?

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

ok no arguing per se . . . let me ask then. Why is Muhammad the greatest man to ever live and worthy of emulation?

Well in that case let me get my popcorn ready.

[Machine_Washable]

9 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

ok no arguing per se . . . let me ask then. Why is Muhammad the greatest man to ever live and worthy of emulation?

Well, the most straightforward answer I can give here is that I believe it because I believe the Qur’an is the word of God and the Qur’an very clearly says that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the messenger of Allah and of sound mind and good moral character. Furthermore the Qur’an tells us to look to Prophet Muhammad (saw) as a moral guide. I think often times Muslims answer this question by listing things that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) did that are positive or seem to confirm to moral sensibilities. Like ending the practice of female infanticide. Or encouraging the care of orphans. But I don’t think this really answers the question for two reasons. The first reason is that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) didn’t just do things that fit with modern sensibilities. He also did things that clash with them. Such as taking captives in warfare as slaves. Secondly, if the Prophet Muhammad (saw) just made up the Qur’an (astaghfirullah) then he would be a bad man, or a man of mixed moral virtue.  
 

Ultimately, when looking at the seera you can only judge it by whether you believe that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the Messenger of Allah or not. That’s really what it all turns on. 
 

I hope this answer clarifies what I meant by not wanting to debate. I’m happy to discuss and engage in dialogue. But if you are interested in how a Muslims apologist would answer the question I’m not really your guy. I’m just not an expert and can only give my thoughts on it. If you’d like me to say more or answer any other questions please let me know. 

[Ice_nine]

6 minutes ago, Machine_Washable said:

Well, the most straightforward answer I can give here is that I believe it because I believe the Qur’an is the word of God and the Qur’an very clearly says that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the messenger of Allah and of sound mind and good moral character.

so you believe the Quran is the word of God, and therefore you believe that Muhammad is good, because the Quran says so?

I see a lot of similarities in the way some Protestants use their sacred texts.

Why do you believe the Quran is the word of God?

Quote

"Furthermore the Qur’an tells us to look to Prophet Muhammad (saw) as a moral guide. . .The first reason is that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) didn’t just do things that fit with modern sensibilities. He also did things that clash with them. Such as taking captives in warfare as slaves."

"Clashing with modern sensibilities" is er, one way to put it.

In the Bible, many of God's chosen ones do a lot of screwed up things: murder, adultery, abuse of power . . . I could go on. But these things are never called "good" or "worthy of emulation" just because someone holy does it.

That's because all of the prophets of God were still men and still struggled with their own sin.

However, as you mentioned, the Quran holds up Mohammad to be a paragon of righteousness. The greatest of all prophets . . . yet, also as you said, he had sex slaves. He married a nine year old. He was a warlord. And it's funny that you mention "care for orphans," as he outlawed adoption after he married his nephew's (I think) ex-wife. In Muslim countries you can look after children who are not your own but they cannot get the same inheritance rights as natural children.

He also greatly misunderstood Christianity. For example, he mentions Mary being part of the Trinity, but Christians have never believed this. Perhaps there were some weird cults that deified her, but again, it seems like how Protestants misunderstand liturgical Christians' view of Mary.

Quote

"Secondly, if the Prophet Muhammad (saw) just made up the Qur’an (astaghfirullah) then he would be a bad man, or a man of mixed moral virtue."

I think we agree there. Of course I believe he did make up the Koran. Perhaps on his own, or inspired by the spirit of the antichrist.

Quote

But if you are interested in how a Muslims apologist would answer the question I’m not really your guy.

  I haven't seen a Muslim apologist who hasn't put out absolute garbage. I'd rather talk to a Muslim rando then any of them.

Are you at all aware of the Yasir Qadhi "holes in the narrative"?

 

I hope you stick around. I have no interest in pulling any punches. I don't believe that your average, westernized Muslim is a threat, but I do believe Islam is a dangerous ideology, a heresy, and that Muhammad was one of the great villains of history.

If you can handle honesty, I'd love to engage in more discussion.

[Machine_Washable]

3 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

so you believe the Quran is the word of God, and therefore you believe that Muhammad is good, because the Quran says so?

I see a lot of similarities in the way some Protestants use their sacred texts.

Why do you believe the Quran is the word of God?

"Clashing with modern sensibilities" is er, one way to put it.

In the Bible, many of God's chosen ones do a lot of screwed up things: murder, adultery, abuse of power . . . I could go on. But these things are never called "good" or "worthy of emulation" just because someone holy does it.

That's because all of the prophets of God were still men and still struggled with their own sin.

However, as you mentioned, the Quran holds up Mohammad to be a paragon of righteousness. The greatest of all prophets . . . yet, also as you said, he had sex slaves. He married a nine year old. He was a warlord. And it's funny that you mention "care for orphans," as he outlawed adoption after he married his nephew's (I think) ex-wife. In Muslim countries you can look after children who are not your own but they cannot get the same inheritance rights as natural children.

He also greatly misunderstood Christianity. For example, he mentions Mary being part of the Trinity, but Christians have never believed this. Perhaps there were some weird cults that deified her, but again, it seems like how Protestants misunderstand liturgical Christians' view of Mary.

I think we agree there. Of course I believe he did make up the Koran. Perhaps on his own, or inspired by the spirit of the antichrist.

  I haven't seen a Muslim apologist who hasn't put out absolute garbage. I'd rather talk to a Muslim rando then any of them.

Are you at all aware of the Yasir Qadhi "holes in the narrative"?

 

I hope you stick around. I have no interest in pulling any punches. I don't believe that your average, westernized Muslim is a threat, but I do believe Islam is a dangerous ideology, a heresy, and that Muhammad was one of the great villains of history.

If you can handle honesty, I'd love to engage in more discussion.

I don’t know how to break up your post into quotes. So I’m going to try to respond with each by breaking my answers up in a way that corespondents to your paragraphs. 
 

-Yes. The Qur’an speaks to me. As does the lives and examples of better Muslims than myself. I have had experiences that have reenforced my beliefs. But that really is what it comes down to. Maybe an even better answer would be that I believe Islam is true and so I believe the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the best of men. 
 

-Why do you say it’s like the Protestants? 
 

-I’m going to skip this one for now just because it’s such a big question I’m really not ready to answer it. If I forget to come back and respond please tag me or do another thread and I will respond. Again, I don’t have a scientific answer or anything. I can just give you why it makes sense to me. I’m not claiming it would be convincing to anyone else who wants a strictly rational argument. 
 

-Yes. I’m not going to pretend that Islam aligns perfectly with modern sensibilities. For example, Islam did condone slavery. There are great ulema and Muslim scholars who have argued that Islam is totally compatible with a world without slavery. There is no duty in Islam to reestablish it. But Islam also does not hold that slavery is always and forever wrong. At least when it is in the confines of the sharia. The same is true for some punishments like stoning. That is uncomfortable to say but you all have been very friendly to me and I don’t want to insult your intelligence and disrespect you by trying to dance around that fact. 

-I’m not going to go into a lot of depth here because I do not know enough to give you more in depth answers. But Muslims do not believe that the Prophets cannot sin. For example Adam sinned. The Qur’an corrects Prophet Muhammad (saw) on at least two occasions that I can think of. It tells him that it is not befitting a Prophet of God to beg God to forgive his beloved Uncle and protector for forgiveness after he died while refusing to renounce polytheism. And it also corrects him for dismissing a blind man who came to him seeking knowledge while he was attempting to convert more influential members of the tribe who would bring even more converts:

“He frowned and turned away, 2 because the blind man came to him. 3 And what would apprise thee? Perhaps he would purify himself, 4 or be reminded, such that the reminder might benefit him. 5 As for him who deems himself beyond need, 6 to him dost thou attend, 7 though thou art not answerable, should he not be purified. 8 But as for him who came to thee striving earnestly 9 while fearful, 10 from him thou art diverted.”

I believe ibn Taymiyyah wrote some about to what extent a prophet can sin in his discussion of the ‘satanic verses’ but I’m not knowledgeable enough to go into much more depth. 
 

-I disagree with your characterizations of some things here. But I think if you want me to discuss them more we’d need to do a specific thread or post so it doesn’t make my response here completely unreadable. But I’ll agree with you that classical fiqh allowed men to have legally licit sexual relationships with slaves, Aisha was much younger that would or should be allowed now (she might not have been nine but she couldn’t have been much older), the early Muslims both defended themselves from outside aggression and expanded their land through conquest. As for the fiqh of inheritance I believe that is generally true but I’m not a scholar so I cannot tell you what the nuances of the law is. It’s also important to remember that there are differences between the madhabs on a lot of these issues. And even within the madhabs there are different interpretations. A modern leaning Hanafi from al Azhar may well have a different opinion than a Hanafi who is a deobundi. 
 

-I’m going to be honest I have heard Christians claim this before and remember looking at the tafsir on it but that was a long time ago. If you can quote me what you’re referring to I’ll look up the tafsir on it. 
 

-I obviously disagree. I don’t think it makes sense given his position in society. There was little worse in Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) time than being cut off by your clan and he chose to do this. If he wanted riches or a good life there were much more likely ways to get it. The Qur’an has numerous instances in it where the Quraish come to him with a compromise and he is tempted to accept it and God corrects him from accommodating with polytheism. Obviously you disagree. Muslims take the honor of Prophet Muhammad (saw) very seriously so if I get testy in some of these responses I apologize. I do not believe you are speaking out of malice or rudeness. You have a very different understanding of Prophet Muhammad (saw) than I do and you are standing up for what you believe is right. I appreciate you showing me the respect to speak bluntly about what you believe to be true. I will try to show you the same respect by being as clear as I can and not dodging around tough issues. And when I don’t know I will tell you I don’t know. I think this is a good discussion and I am happy to continue it. 
 

-Why do you say that? I’m not offended or anything. I don’t know any apologists. I’m just interested in an outsiders view. 
 

-I was not expecting to see Yasir Qadhi referenced here! I don’t consider Yasir Qadhi an apologist because he mostly makes videos for Muslims. Honestly, I like Yasir Qadhi. I think he’s a good force on the Muslim world. I was actually going to tell you think if you want a more informed Muslim perspective on the life of Prophet Muhammad (saw) then I’d recommend his series on the seera. It’s on YouTube. It is over a hundred hours long but usually you can find clips of it discussing  particular issues on YouTube. I’m just curious, why don’t you like Yasir Qadhi? I didn’t think people outside of Muslim circles had him on their radar. 
 

To answer your question directly I do know about the “holes in the narrative” controversy. I am not big on the creed arguments but generally I fall on the Athari side. And a lot of figures in that circle of Muslim Facebook and Twitter really went after him hard over that interview. I listened to the full interview with Muhammad Hijab before it got pulled (right after it aired, actually) and I didn’t think it was a big deal at the time. I still don’t think it’s a big deal. I agree that he should have been more careful with his words because it is a bad sound bite. But I don’t think the substance of what he’s saying is bad. I’m not saying I agree with it. I don’t know nearly enough about the Qir’at and those sciences to say if he’s right that the standard narrative is faulty or not. But I don’t think it’s a big deal if it is. At least what Qadhi is proposing as his view wouldn’t be a problem if it turned out to be true.  Why do you bring it up? I’m curious because that’s such a technical area I’m surprised to see it referenced in a non-Muslim context. 
 

-Yes, I picked up on that (lol). As I said, I really, strongly disagree with you. But I do appreciate your honesty. Like all but a very few Muslims, I consider groups like ISIS to be modern day Kharijites and I believe very firmly that they will meet with God’s wrath on the day of judgement for what they have done. In Islam we have a concept that on the last day those whom you have wronged will be able to accuse you. In describing the last day the Qur’an says that the female infant buried alive will be asked for what sin she was slain. The scholars have interpreted this to mean that those who are murdered will have their chance on the last day to demand an account from their murderer. Although I think you can see from my answers here I am not a “progressive muslim” I truly hate and curse those who bring such dishonor to my religion and the Prophet of God (saw). I believe they will taste the fire for both their dramatic sins and for making people believe that they represent Islam. The most charitable thing I can say for them is that as Muslims I have to hope that they will fear God and seek repentance before it is too late.

 

-Sure. As I said I’m not an expert or a trained da’i. So please don’t feel shortchanged if you write out a very detailed question or something and all I can say is “I don’t know. Maybe you can find an answer here”. But so long as you’re ok with that I’m happy to keep going. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Machine_Washable

[Peace]

3 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

-Why do you say it’s like the Protestants?

I've had this impression too, that Islam is a Christian heresy, similar to say the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Seventh Day Adventists. Basically Christians who lost their way and broke apart from the mainstream in an attempt to "reform" the faith (like how you say the gospel texts that Christians use are corrupted).

As for the interpretive similarities, you see some stuff in the Christian OT about people being pleased about a dashing a baby's head against a rock, slaughtering or enslaving a whole town, etc. If I saw some of these outside of a Biblical context, I would probably conclude that they were evil.

I would say a good number of Protestants (and perhaps some Catholics too) take a similar view towards the so-called "dark-passages" of the Bible as you do towards some of the "dark-passages" of the Qur'an noted above. Basically, "These things are in the Bible so God ordained them. God is good. Therefore, they must be good because God ordained them." I think you can find some videos online where an atheist will question a Christian about some of those dark-passages, and then you'll see the Christian actually try to defend things like murder, rape, slavery, genocide, etc. as good things that God desired for XYZ purpose. I think that's a silly position to take myself, but when I read your initial response it did remind me of that general sort of view towards the Bible.

3 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

I don’t know how to break up your post into quotes. So I’m going to try to respond with each by breaking my answers up in a way that corespondents to your paragraphs.

Just quote the text, insert the mouse after the text where you want to insert the break, and hit enter a few times to break the quote apart. That's how I do it, at least.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Peace

[Ice_nine]

7 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

I don’t know how to break up your post into quotes. So I’m going to try to respond with each by breaking my answers up in a way that corespondents to your paragraphs. 
 

There's a quotation mark you can click and then copy and paste the relevant text inside the quote box. Without that I'll have to do my best in figuring out what you're referring to.

[Ice_nine]

7 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

-Yes. The Qur’an speaks to me. As does the lives and examples of better Muslims than myself. I have had experiences that have reenforced my beliefs. But that really is what it comes down to. Maybe an even better answer would be that I believe Islam is true and so I believe the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the best of men. 
 

-Why do you say it’s like the Protestants? 
 

 

What about the Quran speaks to you? I've only read a little bit of the Quran. I found it to be kind of a slog to be honest. Maybe I missed the inspiring part. I find the Q2:23 challenge to be ridiculous as I've read many things that surpass the beauty of the Quran. Then you might say "that's entirely subjective" to which I would agree with you. That's the problem.

And then of course I might get the "but that's not in the original Arabic!" I did study Arabic in college, so I know a very little. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a beautiful sounding language, but the calligraphy is nice.

I say it's like the protestants for a number of reasons. One, your faith stems from the miracle of the sacred text. "I believe in Christ (or Islam) because the Bible is the word of God (or the Quran is the word of God)" If that is not what you're saying feel free to correct me. It just seems very simplistic to me. There needs to be something more. That response is not very satisfying.

Why do you believe the Quran is the word of God?

Quote

I’m going to skip this one for now just because it’s such a big question I’m really not ready to answer it.

I'm not sure what question you're referring to.

Quote

-Yes. I’m not going to pretend that Islam aligns perfectly with modern sensibilities. For example, Islam did condone slavery. There are great ulema and Muslim scholars who have argued that Islam is totally compatible with a world without slavery. There is no duty in Islam to reestablish it. But Islam also does not hold that slavery is always and forever wrong. At least when it is in the confines of the sharia. The same is true for some punishments like stoning. That is uncomfortable to say but you all have been very friendly to me and I don’t want to insult your intelligence and disrespect you by trying to dance around that fact. 

I thank you for being honest and not practicing taqiyya

The problem is, you speak as if slavery is not still rampant throughout the Islamic world. It's not JUST the Islamic world (North Korea and China being notorious in that regard) and there is human trafficking in the West, but when there is no prohibition of slavery in Islamic jurisprudence there's a big problem today, not centuries ago.

I'm not here to judge past cultures for having slavery. Slavery was the norm for the vast majority of human history, as was/is poverty in many parts of the world. But we have the revelation that in Christ, the Logos, the God-man, that there is no "Greek nor Jew, slave nor free."

Yes did it take some Christian societies centuries to grasp that concept? Yes, it is still a work in progress in many ways because we are still sinners in need of redemption both as individuals and as societies. HOWEVER, there is the basis of equal dignity of all men before God within Christian revelation. Does Islam have that? Where is that in their sacred texts? Do you think that's part of why slavery is STILL a problem in the Islamic world?

Quote

-I’m not going to go into a lot of depth here because I do not know enough to give you more in depth answers. But Muslims do not believe that the Prophets cannot sin.

Nor do Christians or Jews. Of course Christians believe that Christ was not merely a prophet.

The point I was trying to make is that Jesus is so obviously superior to Muhammad in many ways. I think it's safe to say you do not believe that Jesus was who Christians claim to be, OK. But you believe he was a holy man right? And he didn't engage in conquest/slaughter, have sex slaves, take multiple wives, take any wives for that matter, kill anyone . . . I just see him as so obviously superior to Muhammad even in the Muslim conception.

Quote

I believe ibn Taymiyyah wrote some about to what extent a prophet can sin in his discussion of the ‘satanic verses’ but I’m not knowledgeable enough to go into much more depth. 

Yes, the satanic verses. How did the greatest prophet of all time get tricked into mistaking satan's messages for divine revelation. Seems suss.

Quote

-I’m going to be honest I have heard Christians claim this before and remember looking at the tafsir on it but that was a long time ago. If you can quote me what you’re referring to I’ll look up the tafsir on it. 

Again I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Sorry.

Quote

-I obviously disagree. I don’t think it makes sense given his position in society. There was little worse in Prophet Muhammad’s (saw) time than being cut off by your clan and he chose to do this. If he wanted riches or a good life there were much more likely ways to get it. 

I doubt he was only in it for the money. There was also the power, the women, the glory, and the way he went about obtaining those things is precisely how one might expect a person to do so. Kicking ass and taking names.

Quote

Muslims take the honor of Prophet Muhammad (saw) very seriously so if I get testy in some of these responses I apologize. I do not believe you are speaking out of malice or rudeness. You have a very different understanding of Prophet Muhammad (saw) than I do and you are standing up for what you believe is right. I appreciate you showing me the respect to speak bluntly about what you believe to be true. I will try to show you the same respect by being as clear as I can and not dodging around tough issues. And when I don’t know I will tell you I don’t know. I think this is a good discussion and I am happy to continue it. 

Get testy all you want. You're keeping it straight with me. I can appreciate that. I do hate to see well-meaning people defend the honor of perhaps the most obvious false prophet of all time, but alas I cannot change people's convictions. I would not expect an orthodox Jew to say good things about Christ so I'm glad you can understand where I'm coming from.

7 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

 

-Why do you say that? I’m not offended or anything. I don’t know any apologists. I’m just interested in an outsiders view. 
 

-I was not expecting to see Yasir Qadhi referenced here! I don’t consider Yasir Qadhi an apologist because he mostly makes videos for Muslims. Honestly, I like Yasir Qadhi. I think he’s a good force on the Muslim world. I was actually going to tell you think if you want a more informed Muslim perspective on the life of Prophet Muhammad (saw) then I’d recommend his series on the seera. It’s on YouTube. It is over a hundred hours long but usually you can find clips of it discussing  particular issues on YouTube. I’m just curious, why don’t you like Yasir Qadhi? I didn’t think people outside of Muslim circles had him on their radar. 
 

To answer your question directly I do know about the “holes in the narrative” controversy. I am not big on the creed arguments but generally I fall on the Athari side. And a lot of figures in that circle of Muslim Facebook and Twitter really went after him hard over that interview. I listened to the full interview with Muhammad Hijab before it got pulled (right after it aired, actually) and I didn’t think it was a big deal at the time. I still don’t think it’s a big deal. I agree that he should have been more careful with his words because it is a bad sound bite. But I don’t think the substance of what he’s saying is bad. I’m not saying I agree with it. I don’t know nearly enough about the Qir’at and those sciences to say if he’s right that the standard narrative is faulty or not. But I don’t think it’s a big deal if it is. At least what Qadhi is proposing as his view wouldn’t be a problem if it turned out to be true.  Why do you bring it up? I’m curious because that’s such a technical area I’m surprised to see it referenced in a non-Muslim context. 
 

 

Why do I say what?  I assume the bit about Muslim apologists? I spent a lot of last summer digging into Muslim apologists. None of them were impressive, they all seem sneaky and tend to benefit of the ignorance of their audience ESPECIALLY when talking about Christianity. I am fasting from youtube for Lent, but if you stick around I can find and post some video evidence.

Qadhi's view maybe shouldn't be that big of an issue, but the faith of many Muslims is based on the miraculous preservation of the Quran. You don't see it as suspect or suspicious that he tried to scrub the video from the internet after it was released? Or that he goes after content creators for copyright violations of his content even though it is within the realm of fair use? It seems like he can acknowledge some problems of the traditional understanding of Quranic preservation, but doesn't trust the faithful to be able to handle the truth.

And Muhammad Hijab embodies almost everything I loathe about Islam. Its brutal authoritarianism, it's appeal to the base desires of men. He's just a big and loud bully with a short fuse who mistakes threat of physical force or cheap rhetorical stunts as evidence for Islam's superiority. The fact that he's one of the most popular Muslim apologists should be a source of shame.

[Peace]

47 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I say it's like the protestants for a number of reasons. One, your faith stems from the miracle of the sacred text. "I believe in Christ (or Islam) because the Bible is the word of God (or the Quran is the word of God)" If that is not what you're saying feel free to correct me. It just seems very simplistic to me. There needs to be something more. That response is not very satisfying.

Why do you believe the Quran is the word of God?

Hmm. Why do you believe that the Bible is the word of God, or the other fundamental doctrines of the Catholic faith?

You'll never convince an atheist (or a Muslim for that matter) to become Christian based on history or reason. Personally, I think that the history surrounding Islam, Muhammad and so forth, is pretty suspicious and that would tend to cause one to disbelieve it, but if we are being honest the atheists can do the same sort job with Christian history (although I think Christian history has a better historical foundation than Islam). It ain't like our history is all roses and peaches, either.

I thought @Machine_Washable 's basic explanation of the reason for his belief concerning Muhammad and the other Muslim doctrines was fine, and is fundamentally the same view as the Christian, when we get down to the nuts and bolts of it. At least to me, he basically seems to say that he just believes what he does as a matter of faith.

But we also believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that the fundamental Catholic doctrines are true, as a matter of faith, do we not? If not, I think we become a bit Pelagian. It not for faith given to us by God, any man would have the natural ability to come to the intellectual conclusion that the Catholic faith is true, and enter the Church, without grace from God in order to do so.

But that is not how we become Catholic. We are called into the Church by the faith that God instills within us and the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Sure, we use reason, history, evidence, logic, etc. as a means of expressing and understanding our faith in an intellectual manner. It also true that the Holy Spirit can use these things to assist in a person's conversion. But at a fundamental level neither you or I "reasoned" our way into the Catholic Church as if it were some purely intellectual matter that can be proven by way of science, history, or legal deduction. Fundamentally, we are Catholic by the grace of God, and nobody comes into the Church without the faith that God gives us.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Peace