The resignation of Cardinal Robert Sarah

[Era Might]

Just one last post since this thread was derailed: Cardinal Sarah and Africa was the original topic.

[Clean Water]

How is Era Might wrong in what he's saying? Jesus literally says at the Final Judgement we will go to Heaven or Hell based on our treatment of the poor. He says when we helped them we were literally helping God himself. By all means do all the Catholic religious rituals that you've been taught to do. But if you're claiming the Catholic Church doesn't teach what Jesus does about the Final Judgement then I'm curious why you believe this?

The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[Peace]

33 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

How is Era Might wrong in what he's saying?

I find the timing of this post to be quite suspicious. Isn't this a dummy account created by @Era Might? Someone please check the IP address.

Regardless, you are wrong at least insofar you suggest that the primary (and practically exclusive) purpose of the Catholic religion (faith, Church, etc.) is to achieve good things such as eliminating poverty here on Earth, rather than for the salvation of souls, improving our relationship with the Lord, and preparation for eternal life in the world hereafter.

You suggested this in statements such as these:

1) Latin liturgy is not going to do anything for Africa. The last thing the continent needs is another division by a European language. If Catholicism wants to do something constructive for Africa, I'd say it should focus on countering the retreat of the West into anti-global conservatism and aggressive/racist nationalism, ala Trumpism in the USA or Orban in Hungary.

2) As for the church, the Pope is a global leader of over a billion people. Though he is no longer a monarch in the medieval sense, he remains a global power broker and peacemaker. The church itself has recognized its own former isolationism and changed course. There was a time when the Pope was a prisoner of Rome, never leaving its walls. The church recognizes that it is not the spiritual center of the world, that there is a vast world made up of many different peoples, and its role is not to vainly pretend that everyone is going to become Catholic. The church, if it has any role in the world at all, has it in Europe and the West. If the church just wants to be a global parish for old ladies to say their rosaries, well it will continue its slide into irrelevance in the West, but in fact the Church comments all the time on society, and as I mentioned, is involved directly in politics, as in South Sudan because the Pope understands the slaughter that is going on in the world. Pope Francis in particular has spoken out about the global situation driven by capitalism and other modern manias.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Peace

[hakutaku]

28 minutes ago, Clean Water said:

How is Era Might wrong in what he's saying? Jesus literally says at the Final Judgement we will go to Heaven or Hell based on our treatment of the poor.

The iron law of bureaucracy binds all organizations, the secular and religious alike.  There will always be people dedicated to the Church's actual goals of serving the poor.  But such people will always be opposed by (and indeed, ruled by) those dedicated to the bureaucracy itself who cannot abide by anything they perceive as a reduction in the organization's power.  Even if that "reduction" is a shift in focus or softening of rules that better serves the organizations actual goals.

1 hour ago, Era Might said:

Just one last post since this thread was derailed: Cardinal Sarah and Africa was the original topic.

The reason people are upset by the removal of this conservative is that it was done in opposition to the iron law.  This cardinal is the kind of guy that the law says should be in charge, insofar as he is taking a hard line stance in favor of the old bureaucracy over the organizations current goals and objectives.

 

[Ash Wednesday]

On 2/20/2021 at 10:16 PM, dUSt said:

I hate to stereotype, but I would not be surprised if most Trad Catholics are also Trumpers.

A lot of Americans tend to be. The British trads in my experience are more of a mixed bag. American politics are an enigma to many of them and while they aren't ones to cheer on the Democrats like most Europeans, many are pretty arm's length and not comfortable with the heavy handed "America first" nationalism.
 

[truthfinder]

I think the important thing to remember is that American trad-dom is not representative of 'trads' anywhere else.

[Nihil Obstat]

5 hours ago, truthfinder said:

I think the important thing to remember is that American trad-dom is not representative of 'trads' anywhere else.

I would go so far as to argue that "American traditionalism" as a distinct entity is not genuinely traditionalist in several important senses.

[Peace]

34 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

I would go so far as to argue that "American traditionalism" as a distinct entity is not genuinely traditionalist in several important senses.

Hmm. Please explain. What would the major differences be between here and there?

[Nihil Obstat]

Honestly, it goes beyond the scope of discussions I am still willing to dedicate time to on internet fora. 

Btw, are you on Facebook? I would be happy to reconnect with you if you are.

 

In a nutshell, I think that "the American Trad" suffers from serious political errors, as well as endemic laxity in the interior life. By the American Trad I am referring to the sort of archetype, or maybe the stereotype, most probably the same character you have in mind.

I find that Western political conservatism, but especially American republicanism is ideologically compromised right to its roots because of its fundamental basis in classical liberalism. The American traditionalist is quite often just as much a liberal as any progressive. There are exceptions, but in a lot of cases even the exceptions have imbued the same errors.

My personal criticisms also line up with Fr. Ripperger's classic "problems in the Traditionalist Movement" lecture, namely that traditionalists are neglecting the interior life and embracing pride and impiety.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Nihil Obstat

[Peace]

11 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Honestly, it goes beyond the scope of discussions I am still willing to dedicate time to on internet fora. 

Btw, are you on Facebook? I would be happy to reconnect with you if you are.

 

In a nutshell, I think that "the American Trad" suffers from serious political errors, as well as endemic laxity in the interior life. By the American Trad I am referring to the sort of archetype, or maybe the stereotype, most probably the same character you have in mind.

I find that Western political conservatism, but especially American republicanism is ideologically compromised right to its roots because of its fundamental basis in classical liberalism. The American traditionalist is quite often just as much a liberal as any progressive. There are exceptions, but in a lot of cases even the exceptions have imbued the same errors.

My personal criticisms also line up with Fr. Ripperger's classic "problems in the Traditionalist Movement" lecture, namely that traditionalists are neglecting the interior life and embracing pride and impiety.

Thanks. I'll see if I can find that lecture. Not on FB or IG, but I should be considering how much time I have been spending on here lately.

Yeah it has kind of been my impression that a lot of "Trad" folks here in the US are too influenced by politics. But to be fair that is probably true of most Americans. For most of us it seems that we take our politics too seriously so that our politics influence our religious views, instead of our religion influencing our political views.

Its almost like with a lot of people it feels like their fundamental identity is tied to their political party.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Peace

[Nihil Obstat]

Here is a transcript. The lecture is on YouTube as well. https://www.tumblarhouse.com/blogs/news/problems-in-the-traditionalist-movement

[dUSt]

1 hour ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Btw, are you on Facebook? I would be happy to reconnect with you if you are.

Facebook and other social platforms are the reason that places like phatmass have become less visited, leading to a culture in which you are controlled by algorithms. Escape while you can. Little phorums like ours are critical in this mind control war.

[Lilllabettt]

12 minutes ago, dUSt said:

Facebook and other social platforms are the reason that places like phatmass have become less visited, leading to a culture in which you are controlled by algorithms. Escape while you can. Little phorums like ours are critical in this mind control war.

This is the truth.

[Anastasia]

What really puts me off social media is its format which makes any deep discussion impossible. It is quite empty.

LJ I think does not fit into "social media category" with its long posts - but then I mostly read Russian-speaking bloggers whose posts are more like Dostoevsky.

As for Cardinal Sarah, I did not know much about him (only read some things he said I did not agree with) but after reading this Cardinal Sarah: “We must rebuild the cathedral … We do not need to invent a new Church” (again, do not agree with everything) all I can say that he is real and it is sad that the real person is no longer in Vatican. 

[Nihil Obstat]

2 hours ago, dUSt said:

Facebook and other social platforms are the reason that places like phatmass have become less visited, leading to a culture in which you are controlled by algorithms. Escape while you can. Little phorums like ours are critical in this mind control war.

¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯ When I have reasons to come back, I am only ever a click away.

I did Exodus 90 last year, and surprisingly enough social media was one of the easier things to give up for me. The algorithms can go to war if they want to; I seem to be crippled by modernity and concupiscence in other ways.