The resignation of Cardinal Robert Sarah

[Machine_Washable]

56 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Here is the video of the Pope kissing the feet of the leaders of South Sudan and begging for peace. This is the fundamental role of religion, love and peace. Religion can no longer be a source of division. Let every man believe according to his conscience, but the world must be one, because we are all children of the same Father. Christianity must be the religion of the prophets. As John says in the Bible, true religion pure and undefiled is to care for widows and orphans in their distress. God lives inside man, man is the tabernacle of God. If you believe he lives in the tabernacle of a church, you must equally believe he lives in the tabernacle of each and every person without exception. He is really and truly present in man.

 

This seems like a very humanist perspective to me. Surely the fundamental role of religion is to submit to the will of God and worship Him?

[Peace]

59 minutes ago, Machine_Washable said:

This seems like a very humanist perspective to me. Surely the fundamental role of religion is to submit to the will of God and worship Him?

Well @Era Might has his own rather unique views when it comes to that. I don’t know if anyone takes them seriously though.

I would say a fair number of Christians would say that God created man for the purpose of worshipping him, like you wrote.

I wouldn’t call that view “wrong” but I would say that religion is more for the purpose of improving ourselves and improving our relationship with God, so that we are fit to live with him and share his blessed life for all eternity.
 

I guess at a fundamental level I view God as having created man out of love and wanting to have a relationship with man, rather than like God having created man as a sort of servant to worship him.
 

Now, of course submitting to God’s will and worshipping him are required for every Christian, but I view these as primarily as for man’s benefit, not because God needs them for his own glory per se. I would say that God requires us to submit to his will and to worship him, because he loves us and doing these things is ultimately for our own good (sin causes us harm, while worship directs our hearts to the good, which is ultimately God himself).

[Era Might]

2 hours ago, Machine_Washable said:

This seems like a very humanist perspective to me. Surely the fundamental role of religion is to submit to the will of God and worship Him?

Sure, but the will of God is utterly simple and universal and has been revealed fully in Christ. The will of God is that we love, first ourselves and then each other. The only thing that unites us is being human. People in Zimbabwe need the same things as people in Alabama and Moscow and Calcutta, we need food, clothes, shelter, love and peace. These are the preconditions of life and of religion:

"If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" (James 2)

We can't seek to know God until we first know ourselves, because God created us to be ourselves. He did not create us to be something other than human. This is the purpose for which we were created, to be human, to be fully alive as men and women. The message of Jesus is very simple: I have a father, and you are my brother. The purpose of religion is not to arrive at this, as though one day we'll all be loving brothers ...this is the precondition of religion. If religion is not human, if its motivating principle is not to reveal the love of God who lives in and through man, then it is vain and useless:

"Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." (1Corinthians 13)

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do. He said to them, 'All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban'—(that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." (Mark 7)

"The woman said to Him, 'Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.' Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.'" (John 4)

The reason why this matters in the context of Africa is because Africa reveals all the failures of religion in the world. Two centuries of Christianity and yet Africans are still drowning in the Mediterranean in search of work in Europe, starving to death while the Western world lives in abundance of food and luxury, women and children dying in war and violence. Jesus came for Africa, and until every last African has the basic needs of humanity, food, clothes, shelter, love and peace, then all the religions of this world (including secular religions such as nationalism) are dead and antichrist. This was the image of a drowned migrant from Honduras trying to make it across the Rio Grande with his daughter. This is the world we live in, and we don't need any new prophets to condemn it, for it stands condemned already. All the prophets bear witness against this world, and if religion does not stand with the prophets, then let all religion die the death, because it is vain and useless. This is the message of Christ, he was no friend of the Pharisees or the Romans, he was the king of the poor.

"The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.

For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust. (Psalm 103)

1 hour ago, Peace said:

Well @Era Might has his own rather unique views when it comes to that. I don’t know if anyone takes them seriously though.

A word never goes forth without accomplishing its purpose, and if you don't take it seriously, then that means the word wasn't meant for you, and it returns to its giver with nothing lost.

 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet." (Matthew 10)

Edited February 22, 2021 by Era Might

[Peace]

6 minutes ago, Era Might said:

A word never goes forth without accomplishing its purpose, and if you don't take it seriously, then that means the word wasn't meant for you, and it returns to its giver with nothing lost.

 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet." (Matthew 10)

Do you consider yourself Catholic, or even Christian, nowadays? Or is your use of Sacred Scripture purely from the perspective of a secularist? The last time I recall you had left the Church, but correct me if I am wrong.

[Era Might]

Just now, Peace said:

Do you consider yourself Catholic, or even Christian, nowadays? Or is your use of Sacred Scripture purely from the perspective of a secularist? The last time I recall you had left the Church, but correct me if I am wrong.

Why does that matter? If you disagree with something I have to say, then disagree. Jesus said by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

[Peace]

Just now, Era Might said:

Why does that matter?

Well, this is primarily a Catholic website after all.

If you were implying that those views are representative of mainstream Catholic or Christian faith, I would want readers to know that they are not, so that they do not get an incorrect impression of what the mainstream Catholic or Christian faith teaches.

Just now, Era Might said:

If you disagree with something I have to say, then disagree. Jesus said by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Well, insofar as these views are not claimed to be Christian, I feel no particular need to respond to all of them, although perhaps some of them are interesting from a purely philosophical perspective.

[Era Might]

Just now, Peace said:

Well, this is primarily a Catholic website after all.

If you were implying that those views are representative of mainstream Catholic or Christian faith, I would want readers to know that they are not, so that they do not get an incorrect impression of what the mainstream Catholic or Christian faith teaches.

Well, insofar as these views are not claimed to be Christian, I feel no particular need to respond to all of them, although perhaps some of them are interesting from a purely philosophical perspective.

No, I don't speak for the Catholic Church.

I've been a member of Phatmass for almost 20 years. There used to be a lot of discussion here, never any expectation that anyone had to be Catholic or Christian or anything else to have an opinion.

You don't need to respond to anything. Take it or leave it however you want.

[Peace]

4 minutes ago, Era Might said:

No, I don't speak for the Catholic Church.

I've been a member of Phatmass for almost 20 years. There used to be a lot of discussion here, never any expectation that anyone had to be Catholic or Christian or anything else to have an opinion.

You don't need to respond to anything. Take it or leave it however you want.

Personally, I welcome all sorts of views (although I find atheism to be repugnant and idiotic, to be frank) regardless of the religious affiliation, or lack thereof, of the people engaged in the discussion. I just wanted to clarify that yours is not an opinion of a Catholic, should anyone be confused by your use of Sacred Scripture to support your opinions. Carry on.

I mean, lets say I went to a Muslim forum and started quoting certain verses from the Quran to support an assertion that Jesus is divine. Certainly the Muslims at that forum would not want anyone to get the impression that what I wrote is an opinion of a Muslim. They would want to make it clear that this is a Christian using the Quran from the perspective of a Christian. I don't think that's very unreasonable.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Peace

[jubilatedeo]

31 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Sure, but the will of God is utterly simple and universal and has been revealed fully in Christ. The will of God is that we love, first ourselves and then each other. The only thing that unites us is being human. People in Zimbabwe need the same things as people in Alabama and Moscow and Calcutta, we need food, clothes, shelter, love and peace. These are the preconditions of life and of religion:

"If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" (James 2)

We can't seek to know God until we first know ourselves, because God created us to be ourselves. He did not create us to be something other than human. This is the purpose for which we were created, to be human, to be fully alive as men and women. The message of Jesus is very simple: I have a father, and you are my brother. The purpose of religion is not to arrive at this, as though one day we'll all be loving brothers ...this is the precondition of religion. If religion is not human, if its motivating principle is not to reveal the love of God who lives in and through man, then it is vain and useless:

"Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." (1Corinthians 13)

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do. He said to them, 'All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban'—(that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." (Mark 7)

"The woman said to Him, 'Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.' Jesus said to her, 'Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.'" (John 4)

The reason why this matters in the context of Africa is because Africa reveals all the failures of religion in the world. Two centuries of Christianity and yet Africans are still drowning in the Mediterranean in search of work in Europe, starving to death while the Western world lives in abundance of food and luxury, women and children dying in war and violence. Jesus came for Africa, and until every last African has the basic needs of humanity, food, clothes, shelter, love and peace, then all the religions of this world (including secular religions such as nationalism) are dead and antichrist. This was the image of a drowned migrant from Honduras trying to make it across the Rio Grande with his daughter. This is the world we live in, and we don't need any new prophets to condemn it, for it stands condemned already. All the prophets bear witness against this world, and if religion does not stand with the prophets, then let all religion die the death, because it is vain and useless. This is the message of Christ, he was no friend of the Pharisees or the Romans, he was the king of the poor.

"The Lord executes righteousness
And justice for all who are oppressed.
He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the children of Israel.
The Lord is merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever.
He has not dealt with us according to our sins,
Nor punished us according to our iniquities.

For as the heavens are high above the earth,
So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
As a father pities his children,
So the Lord pities those who fear Him.
For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust. (Psalm 103)

A word never goes forth without accomplishing its purpose, and if you don't take it seriously, then that means the word wasn't meant for you, and it returns to its giver with nothing lost.

 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet." (Matthew 10)

The Catholic Church teaches that everyone is created in the Image and Likeness of God. . .not for ourselves.

From the BC # 3: Why did make us? God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us HIS everlasting happiness in heaven. 

From the BC #5: From whom do we learn to know, love, and serve God? We learn to know, love and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, WHO teaches us through the Catholic Church.

Again, we do not love our selves first. We know, love, and serve God first in which enables us to love ourselves in the proper form. 

 

***I am namely putting this out here so that those that may  not recognize that what you spoke of is not the teaching of the Church may know that it is improper teaching and to know what is the proper teaching.***

Edited February 22, 2021 by jubilatedeo

[Era Might]

4 minutes ago, Peace said:

Personally, I welcome all sorts of views (although I find atheism to be repugnant and idiotic, to be frank) regardless of the religious affiliation, or lack thereof, of the people engaged in the discussion. I just wanted to clarify that yours is not an opinion of a Catholic, should anyone be confused by your use of Sacred Scripture to support your opinions. Carry on.

I mean, lets say I went to a Muslim forum and started quoting certain verses from the Quran to support an assertion that Jesus is divine. Certainly the Muslims at that forum would not want anyone to get the impression that what I wrote is an opinion of a Muslim. They would want to make it clear that this is a Christian using the Quran from the perspective of a Christian. I don't think that's very unreasonable.

Well I didn't really post in order to get into a debate, just stating my opinions. But, if I did want to debate, I don't think my knowledge of Catholicism is inferior to anyone here. As Paul said, I'm a Hebrew of Hebrews. If you think you're a zealous Catholic, I've been more zealous than you lol. But I'm just here to discuss God and the Bible, I'm not interested in debating anyone's theology or religion. Believe as you will, and if you find something in my words that is untrue, then that's fine. The important thing is that we all have one Father in heaven, and that God is a living man whose name is Christ.

Anyway, sorry for the detour, back to the original topic of Africa...

[Peace]

20 minutes ago, Era Might said:

But I'm just here to discuss God and the Bible

Well, that is what you say, but it rather appears that you are here to bloviate and use God and the Bible to further secular humanist goals. In principle it's really no different than folks who use God and the Bible to further evil things such as slavery (although it differs from the perspective that some of the things you advocate for are good). But fundamentally it seems that you are attempting to use God and the Bible as a tool to support your particular political or humanist leanings. What you care primarily about are those secular or humanist goals. You are just using God and the Bible as a means to further those goals. That's how I see it at least.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Peace

[Era Might]

Just now, Peace said:

Well, that is what you say, but it rather appears that you are here to bloviate and use God and the Bible to further secular humanist goals. In principle it's really no different than folks who use God and the Bible to further evil things such as slavery (although it differs from the perspective that some of the things you advocate for are good). But fundamentally it seems that you are attempting to use God and the Bible as a tool to support your particular political or humanist leanings.

Yes, obviously I have opinions. I am not you and you are not me. I'm not sure what other purpose there is to be on a forum at all, except to have discussions. Since there doesn't seem to be much discussion going on here, I try to get one going when I see an opportunity, but apparently Phatmass is now just a catechism class. I haven't even really said anything that couldn't be defended even from a strictly orthodox Catholic perspective, and I have a lot of respect for that intellectual tradition, which is one of the reasons why I even come back here at all, it (used to be) one of the few places to have such conversations. But I understand this is a Catholic forum whose purpose is to catechize, so I won't disturb it anymore. Take care and thanks for the discussion!

[Peace]

2 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Yes, obviously I have opinions. I am not you and you are not me. I'm not sure what other purpose there is to be on a forum at all, except to have discussions. Since there doesn't seem to be much discussion going on here, I try to get one going when I see an opportunity, but apparently Phatmass is now just a catechism class. I haven't even really said anything that couldn't be defended even from a strictly orthodox Catholic perspective, and I have a lot of respect for that intellectual tradition, which is one of the reasons why I even come back here at all, it (used to be) one of the few places to have such conversations. But I understand this is a Catholic forum whose purpose is to catechize, so I won't disturb it anymore. Take care and thanks for the discussion!

Oh please. Now you are going to take your ball and go home? How childish. Nobody is attempting to silence you. You are perfectly welcome to discuss whatever you want, and we all know that this forum is not a Catechism class and limited only to Catholic teachings. I wanted to clarify that what you wrote is not Catholic, and that it is humanist, for anyone who may have been confused by your use of the Bible. Please feel free to continue bloviating. But I am also free to continue to identify it as such. There is heat in the kitchen. You know that.

[Era Might]

Just now, Peace said:

Oh please. Now you are going to take your ball and go home? How childish. Nobody is attempting to silence you. You are perfectly welcome to discuss whatever you want, and we all know that this forum is not a Catechism class and limited only to Catholic teachings. I wanted to clarify that what you wrote is not Catholic, and that it is humanist, for anyone who may have been confused by your use of the Bible. Please feel free to continue bloviating. But I am also free to continue to identify it as such. There is heat in the kitchen. You know that.

I don't find you very interesting to discuss with. That's why I'm leaving. You're not very interesting to me and not worth my time, and you're correct that most people on here are just looking for Catholic teaching. That's fine, no hard feelings. I stopped by here to say hello, and I've had some free time to discuss other things. I'm not taking my ball and going home. I'm going back to where I always was, real life. But just so you know, you come across as a childish arse portal who needs to grow up. Take care.

[Peace]

9 minutes ago, Era Might said:

I don't find you very interesting to discuss with. That's why I'm leaving. You're not very interesting to me and not worth my time, and you're correct that most people on here are just looking for Catholic teaching. That's fine, no hard feelings. I stopped by here to say hello, and I've had some free time to discuss other things. I'm not taking my ball and going home. I'm going back to where I always was, real life. But just so you know, you come across as a childish arse portal who needs to grow up. Take care.

Cheers