Two Somewhat Random Questions...

[PaxCordisJesu]

Okay, so I'm not sure if I should be asking these questions here or at Open Mic. But I suspect The Vocation Station gets looked at more often, and thus will get answers faster here. And I'm in a hurry for answers, since I'm giving up Phatmass for Lent, which starts in 6 days. 

First question: can you simultaneously be shy and a saint? I always think of saints as warm, caring people who are welcoming, sympathetic, compassionate, affectionate, etc. I've never heard of a shy saint, and as I am quite shy this concerns me. It's hard enough to become a saint, and having to become an extrovert as well is beyond the limits of my imagination. If y'all know of any shy saints, please, throw some names out! I'd appreciate their example.

And now for the second question: is it bad that I don't like and don't pray the Rosary? I don't mean bad as in sinful, but bad as in it's something I should be doing, but am not. I have a strong repugnance toward praying the Rosary, and don't and won't pray it. Partly it's because I'm independent and stubborn, and don't appreciate people cramming it down my throat with their "Pray the Rosary or go to hell!" mentality. There are a lot of canonized saints who never prayed the Rosary since it didn't yet exist, many of them quite prominent Church figures (the Apostles, Mary, St. Benedict, to name a few). It's my goal to prove that sanctity can still be attained without the Rosary. And a lot of my dislike comes from another source/experience, which I'm not going to talk about here. But I'm worried that I can't have a real devotion to Our Lady without praying the Rosary. Is it alright to pray other Marian prayers instead? Like the Memorare, the Angelus, etc.? I just don't want that other experience to prevent me from having a good thing like a devotion to Our Lady. This is a long post, so thanks for reading through it!

[Anastasia]

1 hour ago, PaxCordisJesu said:

I always think of saints as warm, caring people who are welcoming, sympathetic, compassionate, affectionate, etc. I've never heard of a shy saint, and as I am quite shy this concerns me. It's hard enough to become a saint, and having to become an extrovert as well is beyond the limits of my imagination.

A word "shy" seems to acquire a negative connotation in the West now, so as extrovert it seems to me. They are two different things although they may overlap. "Shyness" is about a fear to be negative judged. Being an introvert means that a person gets exhausted around (many) people quickly. "Shyness" can be a spiritual symptom, something to work on if it is subtle form of pride.

Extroverts feel better in a small circle of a close friends or one to one. There is no reason why they cannot be "welcoming, sympathetic, compassionate, affectionate" etc. and they are very often are. An introvert typically wishes to relate on a deeper level and very fact makes them good listeners. They are simply more into "inner life", of their own and of the others (very many psychologists are introverts). They typically dislike small talk because it is too shallow for them. Hence to my mind introverts are very well suited to become Saints - although anyone can become one. As for examples, St John of Cross came to my mind first. Mystics are usually introverts. But please keep in a mind that "extrovert - introvert" is are extremes and there is plenty of verity between them. 

In my experience, those who go for the union with Christ with time become kind of more even. Introverts  can endure more people around them and extrovert acquire more of inner focus.

I cannot advice you about rosary because rosary in the Orthodox tradition is Jesus prayer. Some Saints added to it 'Hail Mary' as well. But I would think if Marian prayers work very well for that it should be fine. I would be concern if you do not like Marian devotions as such, the idea of it. Yet the Roman Catholics here will give you far better advice on this matter.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Anastasia

[Anastasia]

1 hour ago, Anastasia said:

Extroverts feel better in a small circle of a close friends or one to one.

Sorry, I made a mistake here. I meant "introverts feel better in a small circle of a close friends or one to one." There are probably other mistakes of the same type in the text (I overworked and I can hardly concentrate).

[Swami Mommy]

I found your comments about praying the Rosary very interesting.  Too often, for me, I have observed that praying the rosary in a group setting can easily become a meaningless exercise in rote repetition if the prayer, itself, doesn’t particularly stir the heart to devotion and love.  And the reason for that, I think, is because the person praying it has never taken the time to dissect the words of the prayer and to contemplate their meaning from a deeper place of understanding within a psychological and personal spiritual context.  
 

Let me give you an example:  “Hail, Mary” can be a command and an exhortation to praise Mary, or it can be a reference to a simple greeting as in ‘Welcome, Mary!’.  If one thinks of Mary as representing the female creative aspect of God—the infinite, unceasing springing forth or birthing of new forms of Love into the world—then that, in turn, makes me think of the phrase ‘Love waits on welcome”—in other words, love is always present but requires our conscious attention to notice it and embrace its presence.  Do you see how a simple two word greeting can carry a deeper potential for contemplation? Perhaps studying the prayer, not from a literal surface interpretation, but from a more expanded and subtle appreciation of it as it applies to our own personal understanding of the world, of union with God, of grace, etc. will help you ‘translate’ the prayer into something more beautiful and meaningful to you.  
 

Or perhaps you might focus on the mysteries of the rosary that form the foundation of each of its decades.  For instance the first decade is based on the Visitation, when Mary was asked to choose whether to be the bearer of God.  Are we not ALL given that free will to choose to be the mother of God’s grace in the world?  In the Annunciation, Elizabeth tells Mary that she is with child and will bear the Son of God.  In this decade of the rosary, we are being called to bear witness to the power of God within our own hearts that will make itself known through our actions.  Well, you get the drift.  If you think of the rosary as a tool to work with to deepen our connection to the divine within our own heart’s potential, it kind of changes the flavor of it, at least for me.

if the prayer itself feels dry, how about writing your own prayer to/about Mary and what she symbolizes to you?  Let that prayer bubble up from your heart, rather than be formulated by your mind.  Write a new personal prayer for yourself for each decade of the rosary,  which encapsulates, for YOU, the deeper spiritual meaning of the spiritual journey that particular mystery of the rosary represents.  Or, perhaps you could put the Hail Mary into a song and repetitively sing the prayer, like a chant.  
 

Or, finally, you could PERSONALIZE the prayer, as though you are praying to yourself AS Mary.  See how this feels to you:

”Welcome, ‘Susie’, full of grace.  The Lord is with YOU.  Blessed are you among women, and blessed are the fruits of your womb (your actions).  Holy Susie, mother of God within, intercede with Love for all who suffer the pangs of separation from God through sin, now and at the hour of death. Amen.”  

 

Do you see how saying the rosary can simply be a starting point for developing a deeper relationship with God dwelling within?  Our Lady of Fatima exhorted that we should pray the rosary every day for peace in the world.  What better way to bring peace than by first recognizing it within ourselves by praying the rosary to the divine within our own hearts?  WE are the peace we seek.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Swami Mommy

[Nunsuch]

For what it's worth, I know a whole lot of sisters who never pray the rosary. You DO need to have a personal prayer life, of course, but it doesn't need to include the Rosary. Obviously, I'm not speaking of communities which say the Rosary in common or which mandate it. But most communities these days encourage flexibility in personal prayer.

[gloriana35]

Saints have had a very wide scope of personalities! I cannot imagine that someone's being shy would be any hindrance to holiness. I think people tend to over-analyse today. We're all one Church - believe me, the garrulous members more than make up for your shyness.

Many people find the rosary to be a useful meditation, and some congregations (especially some Dominicans) have it as a common devotion. It is a private devotion - that is, not liturgical - and is not essential in one's prayer life the way that the Eucharist or Divine Office would be (not that the latter is a 'church law,' but those in consecrated life generally do join in the Offices to some extent.) The rosary as an obligation is often a part of devotions - such as those who are focused on Fatima - but those are commitments to a practise based on a private revelation, not on church law.

I rarely say the rosary - though I've known those for whom it was a great strength. 

11 hours ago, PaxCordisJesu said:

It's hard enough to become a saint, and having to become an extrovert as well is beyond the limits of my imagination.

I never thought I'd be using this expression, which is popular in those many decades my junior, but you need to 'chill' a bit!  Our personalities are as vast as the population. No-one is expecting you to 'become an extrovert' - even if some superiors in the past treated the Myer-Briggs test as a fifth gospel. :D 

Plenty of saints were hermits. Others were vowed to silence. I hope I'm not giving you any idea that this is what God expects of the introverted  , but there is no requirement that holiness depends on being extroverted. In fact, I believe the world has had many a squabble because of those who have more zeal than prudence... and never shut up. 

Two posts in succession having proven that I can talk to kingdom's come, I send you blessings. Relax a bit! 

[profer_lumen_cæcis]

Just wanted to weigh in on the Rosary bit St. Therese actually couldn't stand to pray it--in fact, she thought of it as a hair shirt! But she prayed it anyway in a spirit of humility and obedience in order to honor Our Blessed Mother.

[PaxCordisJesu]

7 minutes ago, profer_lumen_cæcis said:

St. Therese actually couldn't stand to pray it--in fact, she thought of it as a hair shirt!

Really?!! This makes me feel much better. Thank you! Maybe eventually I'll start praying the Rosary in honor of Our Lady like St. Therese, but for now if I've got 15 extra minutes I'll spend them praying Vespers or Scripture.

[Lea]

I didn't like the rosary too much either and hardly ever pray it, yet when I spent time with a community that prays it together daily, it was a beautiful thing to do, very meditative and not boring at all. So there might be some spiritual development for you, too  
And if it doesn't happen to be the case with you - surely there are other forms of prayer that lead you into a deeper friendship and love with the Lord. As Benedict XVI put it: "There are as many ways to the Lord as people on earth!"

[gloriana35]

2 minutes ago, Lea said:

As Benedict XVI put it: "There are as many ways to the Lord as people on earth!"

Perfectly true. I hope you'll not mind my sharing an amusing memory here. My Italian  father was not the 'churchiest' of people, but he was one to do for others - he had many qualities that could be less than warm, but no-one could have been more dedicated to family, or more one to help others when he could. 

One sweet, very simple Franciscan Sister I knew always talked about 'becoming holy.' Even the little children she taught either called out 'I hope you become holy' or, her favourite, "I hope you become a saint." When my father met her, and she said the latter to him, he said (not intending to be funny), as soon as she was out of earshot, "Whona hell wants to become a saint? Dere all dead!" 

Don't worry about being who you are - and don't worry about becoming a saint. Divine grace is boundless - we're born in the Creator's image, and God gives us every grace we need for intimacy with Him.  (When we do sin, we are forgiven with the smallest gesture of repentance. Sin is all we can give to God - everything else is from Him!) I often pray that our lives can be a Eucharist - praise and thanksgiving. Therese herself had many a problem that came from influences that made everything about 'sacrifice' and 'suffering.' (That's been done!) God wants us to be happy!

[SicutColumba]

My whole life saying the rosary has been really very hard for me, and I still find that it’s nothing more than a penance to offer up when we pray the rosary as a family. We’re often distracted by the little kids or cats running around or something. There’s always some kind of distraction. But like @Lea said it can be a lot easier to meditate with a community or with serious, motivated, pious people (and apparently the holier the people are with whom you pray, the more grace you receive; this is what I’ve been told a lot). 

When you’re on your own and you want to get into the admittedly good (but ultimately not required) habit of praying the rosary, just pick one mystery that you really like and say it slowly, thinking about each word and trying to draw a newfound truth out of the mystery. Depending on my mood my favorites are the Assumption, Pentecost, any one of the sorrowful mysteries, and the Visitation. Choose one you really like and commit to saying just one decade well every day. You’re not going to go into ecstasy or anything right off the bat and it will probably be hard, but start small and only say one or two decades. Learn how to pray well by starting small rather than throwing yourself half-heartedly into a fifteen-decade affair. 
 

I think @Anastasia and @gloriana35 have addressed the shyness question well. 

Just something to add: I don’t know if the rosary is best prayed and thought of as a contiguous whole, if in a sense its better that it’s meant to be taken as a set of mysteries to be meditated together. But I don’t think there is anything at all wrong with just praying one or two decades at a time rather than the full set of mysteries. 
 

One last thing, it might be of use to count your Hail Marys on a rosary. Yes, you have ten fingers, but actually having the beads to roll around in my hands helps me to ground myself and focus on the mystery. 

*it’s better

[SicutColumba]

I keep adding paragraphs to this reply because I keeping thinking of other stuff to say, sorry! From what I remember you posting I think you go to a TLM. If you’re into Latin, pray the rosary in Latin. If you don’t know the Hail Mary in Latin you can learn it easily, and then you can learn to sing it, too, because it’s been set to music dozens of times. You might not be into that (because we anglophones don’t sing much!) but in France we sing the je vous salue, Marie all the time in all sorts of melodies. 
 

Learning it in another language can help bring a depth to your contemplation that you wouldn’t have otherwise. For example, in the Koine of Saint Luke, the Angel Gabriel greets Our Lady with the words Χαῖρε, Μαρία, κεχαριτωμένη, and Χαῖρε is a word of salutation which is also the imperative of χαίρω, rejoice. So Gabriel says to Mary, « Rejoice, Mary, full of grace ! » 

The word κεχαριτωμένη is also interesting because it’s à declined perfect passive participle of a word that means to give or bestow with grace. So it’s not really « full of grace » only in the present moment; there’s a sense that she has been rendered full of grace from all eternity and still remains as such. So there are just little things like that that can have a deep impact on your meditation. 

[PaxCordisJesu]

4 hours ago, SicutColumba said:

Choose one you really like and commit to saying just one decade well every day.

All right, it's decided! I'm going to try to pray a decade every day for Lent! I really appreciate your advice Sicut, it makes a lot of sense to just start by praying one.  I often meditate on the Annunciation while praying the Angelus, so I'll start with that one.

 

4 hours ago, SicutColumba said:

One last thing, it might be of use to count your Hail Marys on a rosary. Yes, you have ten fingers, but actually having the beads to roll around in my hands helps me to ground myself and focus on the mystery. 

More wise advice! I've found that doing something intentional while praying really helps me focus on what I'm doing. For example, I pray my night prayers while kneeling because it reminds me of what I'm doing and Whom I'm praying to.

3 hours ago, SicutColumba said:

From what I remember you posting I think you go to a TLM. If you’re into Latin, pray the rosary in Latin.

3 hours ago, SicutColumba said:

Learning it in another language can help bring a depth to your contemplation that you wouldn’t have otherwise.

 

I don't attend the TLM on a regular basis, but I am a fan. And I love Latin, it's such a beautiful, poetic language!

I may give praying the Rosary in Latin a try. I do know the Ave and Gloria Patri in Latin (still working on the Pater Noster), but my Latin's not strong enough that I can rush through the prayers. So praying in Latin may help me focus more on the meaning of the words too!

[Anastasia]

15 hours ago, Swami Mommy said:

Or, finally, you could PERSONALIZE the prayer, as though you are praying to yourself AS Mary.  See how this feels to you:

”Welcome, ‘Susie’, full of grace.  The Lord is with YOU.  Blessed are you among women, and blessed are the fruits of your womb (your actions).  Holy Susie, mother of God within, intercede with Love for all who suffer the pangs of separation from God through sin, now and at the hour of death. Amen.”  

As an Orthodox I am compelled to say that this is sure road to "plelest", a spiritual self-delusion based on pride (I am not trying to be offensive, it is an accepted Orthodox definition). First, we are not the Virgin Mary who could not sin, is full of grace and a distributor of grace, she is "higher than seraphim and cherubim" so one naturally looks up to her feeling own impurity and asking her to aid with acquiring purity. Yet she is our Mother so we can talk to her in a very intimate way.  Second, one cannot pray to oneself, this is an antithesis of a prayer. Prayer is all about reaching for the Other.

I understand the point though, that every Christian is supposed to give a birth to Christ in own soul yet it is more like Crucifixion, or a realization of own appalling inability to do any good without God. 

You message though made me recall two things. One is that when I pray (rarely) Catholic rosary I always do scriptural rosary. Another is that I pray "Hail Mary" while sitting on the floor before a huge icon of the Virgin Mary which I have on the wall. It creates an effect of Her presence, especially since the icons are always done in a way that the depicted looks straight into your soul.

PS I have just noticed you belong to Hindu tradition. Now I understand the basis for your opinion. 

[Anastasia]

7 hours ago, SicutColumba said:

just pick one mystery that you really like and say it slowly, thinking about each word and trying to draw a newfound truth out of the mystery. Depending on my mood my favorites are the Assumption, Pentecost, any one of the sorrowful mysteries, and the Visitation. Choose one you really like and commit to saying just one decade well every day.

This is very good, I will try it myself. I think also finding a good icon for the Mystery would help. Then one can say the words and look at the icon, placing oneself into its space.