chrysostom Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 57 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said: That's fine, but this isn't the Church's teaching. The Church hasn't commented on sex reassignment and there are important reasons for that. I know of another case where a woman identified as an amputee and hunted around for a surgeon to remove her perfectly healthy leg. Most surgeons consider this type of thing unethical. I do as well. But, things aren't as cut and dried with our religion as many assume. Could you clarify what assertion isn't church teaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 30 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said: Nah I don't mind at all, this is an AMA lol. Yes, I was born and raised Catholic. As for my family life, it's been somewhat dysfunctional, but we tolerate each other at the end of the day. I suppose my curiosity is related to the family experience for many Catholics that favor traditionalism -- we tend to be at odds with our families in this regard. I'm usually the butt of everyone's jokes and I ended up being the most traditional minded Catholic in my family, i.e. the only one who would want to attend the Latin Mass, etc. Is your family pretty traditional, were your parents more traditional or more of a mixed bag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriositasEtFidem Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Ash Wednesday said: I suppose my curiosity is related to the family experience for many Catholics that favor traditionalism -- we tend to be at odds with our families in this regard. I'm usually the butt of everyone's jokes and I ended up being the most traditional minded Catholic in my family, i.e. the only one who would want to attend the Latin Mass, etc. Is your family pretty traditional, were your parents more traditional or more of a mixed bag? My father is traditional, so that's where I got it from. My mother is an Episcopalian, and my brother is a Deist. Oh, not to pull out the "ohhhh poor me *sob*" card, but I'd like to bring up transgender religious pain. I don't have a lot of energy right now (wooo, depression), so I'll drop an art piece I made a while back here I do have more "trans art" if anyone would like to see it (not so subtle plug for my artwork lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said: My father is traditional, so that's where I got it from. My mother is an Episcopalian, and my brother is a Deist. Oh, not to pull out the "ohhhh poor me *sob*" card, but I'd like to bring up transgender religious pain. I don't have a lot of energy right now (wooo, depression), so I'll drop an art piece I made a while back here I do have more "trans art" if anyone would like to see it (not so subtle plug for my artwork lol) I'm an artist as well. Commercial illustration on the side and flipper of design burgers by day. (I'm actually up past 2:30 am here doing a drawing of the Supremes...) What particular Catholic spiritual devotions do you find helpful? Do you pray the rosary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriositasEtFidem Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said: I'm an artist as well. Commercial illustration on the side and flipper of design burgers by day. (I'm actually up past 2:30 am here doing a drawing of the Supremes...) What particular Catholic spiritual devotions do you find helpful? Do you pray the rosary? Oh my, get some sleep soon! As for devotions, I love the Brown Scapular and the Divine Mercy Image and Chaplet. I'm also fond of Our Lady and the Infant Jesus. I really ought to pray the Rosary more often though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Luigi said: If a plane leaves New York at 10 p.m., traveling west at 545 mph, and another plane leaves Los Angeles at 1 a.m. traveling north by northeast at 600 mph, what are the odds they will crash over Omaha before daylight? Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 29 minutes ago, chrysostom said: Could you clarify what assertion isn't church teaching? "What the surgeon does in these circumstance is permanent mutilation to allow someone to tell a lie with their own body." The Church teaches against mutilation. If trans surgery is mutilation it would definitely be forbidden to Catholics. However the Church has very carefully kept Her silence on the topic despite it being very hot button. When the trans issue is brought up she typically sidesteps or if she does comment it is very narrowly, carefully, and with precisely chosen language. It's complex, there are a lot of problems and issues and angles. The Church doesn't teach that sex reassignment surgery is mutilation per se. You won't find that teaching in any document. It doesn't exist. You can have your opinion (I can't believe I'm "defending" trans stuff on here but oh well) but it's not what the Church teaches as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrysostom Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) I don't see it as the Church waiting around on anything. The teaching is that mutilation is wrong; carving up healthy reproductive organs (for example) is mutilation; therefore carving up reproductive organs is wrong. I'm can't believe I'm defending "carving up healthy reproductive organs is mutilation" - but there you go! I'm fine with the Church taking its time. It should! Personally I don't anticipate it releasing a statement on it anytime soon, or ever... Let me clarify. "Carving up healthy reproductive organs is mutilation" is something I not only doubt the Church will make a statement on officially but also something I don't think it ought to have to. That said, there are many other facets of things like trans identity which will probably get talked about at some point. But to me the mutilation is pretty cut and dried. Oh, phatmass combined my replies and now it looks odd. Whatever... Edited February 10, 2021 by chrysostom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SicutColumba Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 4 hours ago, Lilllabettt said: The Church teaches against mutilation. If trans surgery is mutilation it would definitely be forbidden to Catholics. However the Church has very carefully kept Her silence on the topic despite it being very hot button. When the trans issue is brought up she typically sidesteps or if she does comment it is very narrowly, carefully, and with precisely chosen language. It's complex, there are a lot of problems and issues and angles. The Church doesn't teach that sex reassignment surgery is mutilation per se. You won't find that teaching in any document. It doesn't exist. You can have your opinion (I can't believe I'm "defending" trans stuff on here but oh well) but it's not what the Church teaches as of yet. It seems as on this thread we have several faithful Catholics with different views on transgender issues and I personally couldn’t say whether anyone is wrong. I tend to agree with @Lilllabettt’s theory of performance. I do think that the wide acceptance of transgenderism (I don’t think this is a great word and I would be happy to find an alternative) reinforces misogyny to a truly devastating point, turns the Church’s concept of sex completely on its head, and harms those rare few suffering from dysphoria. It’s such a hot issue and people are so riled up about this, and maybe that’s why the Church has said nothing, but why, honestly, has the Church said next to nothing on this subject? Sometimes I feel there is a lack of guidance and true leadership on this issue that is probably turning a lot of Catholics on the lukewarm side away from the Church. I believe She would fall down pretty hard in the camp of saying that transition is wrong, but there is a lot of nuance surrounding « gender roles ». I get that we still don’t know a whole lot about being transgender but I just don’t understand why the Church has said next to nothing on this hugely consequential topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little2add Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, SicutColumba said: ». I get that we still don’t know a whole lot about being transgender but I just don’t understand why the Church has said next to nothing on this hugely consequential topic. IDK. Church doctrine is very clear on this matter, whether or not some of the faithful choose to except it, is the true crux of the matter. they are many ills that the faithful choose to ignore that are clearly diametrically opposed to church teachings, such as: abortion, pro-Choice, premarital sex, marriage and divorce, just to name a few... Sad Edited February 10, 2021 by little2add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriositasEtFidem Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 6 hours ago, SicutColumba said: It seems as on this thread we have several faithful Catholics with different views on transgender issues and I personally couldn’t say whether anyone is wrong. I tend to agree with @Lilllabettt’s theory of performance. I do think that the wide acceptance of transgenderism (I don’t think this is a great word and I would be happy to find an alternative) reinforces misogyny to a truly devastating point, turns the Church’s concept of sex completely on its head, and harms those rare few suffering from dysphoria. It’s such a hot issue and people are so riled up about this, and maybe that’s why the Church has said nothing, but why, honestly, has the Church said next to nothing on this subject? Sometimes I feel there is a lack of guidance and true leadership on this issue that is probably turning a lot of Catholics on the lukewarm side away from the Church. I believe She would fall down pretty hard in the camp of saying that transition is wrong, but there is a lot of nuance surrounding « gender roles ». I get that we still don’t know a whole lot about being transgender but I just don’t understand why the Church has said next to nothing on this hugely consequential topic. Good morning from the East Coast! Let's get see what the dumpster fire has in store for us today. There's nothing wrong with being a women. I think women are great. It just ain't me. The fact of the matter, no matter how much "gender theory" is brought up (some of which even I find hard to wrap my head around), is that I am much happier living as a man. On a lighter and unrelated note, here's my dysphoria playlist if anyone's interested in taking a listen: (Oh, I should add, the first two tracks contain swear words, so, uh, listener discretion is advised) Good jams for sad times. They always help lift my spirits when I'm in a nasty dysphoria funk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 37 minutes ago, little2add said: IDK. Church doctrine is very clear on this matter, whether or not some of the faithful choose to except it, is the true crux of the matter. they are many ills that the faithful choose to ignore that are clearly diametrically opposed to church teachings, such as: abortion, pro-Choice, premarital sex, marriage and divorce, just to name a few... Sad Can you tell me what you’re referring to? Which church doctrine is clear and on what matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lea Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 What do you consider your vocation so far? Does any of the things you discerned interfere with being a trans man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriositasEtFidem Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 53 minutes ago, Lea said: What do you consider your vocation so far? Does any of the things you discerned interfere with being a trans man? I'd consider it to be the single life. Nothing really interferes with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SicutColumba Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, CuriositasEtFidem said: There's nothing wrong with being a women. I think women are great. It just ain't me. The misogyny to which I’m referring is less apparent in the transition of an FTM individual, although I would imagine that a transgender man has experienced a devastating amount of internalized misogyny. In the case of a MTF transition, what’s implied is that womanhood is nothing more that a skirt, or lipstick, or long haïr, or even sexual organs for those who have had reassignment surgery. A breast augmentation or even makeup is thought to somehow ontologically impart womanhood to a man, just as many people seem to think that birth is supposed to make a fetus a person. It is simply performative, superficial, and always in regard to the male gaze. (I am appropriating this term because I think it is very pertinent here.) This flies in the face of the Church’s conception of womanhood, which tells us that the objectively highest thing that a woman can do is precisely to reject these stereotypes and even the ability to bear children and consecrate herself to God. Having said that, I would just like to know if your fellow parishioners respect your pronouns and the name that you’ve presumably chosen. Edited February 10, 2021 by SicutColumba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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