My thoughts on the mark of the beast

[fides' Jack]

Throughout all of Judaeo-Christian history, there are precursors and prefigurements, where the end of an era is always prefigured by the beginning.  There are signs everywhere you look.  It would certainly make sense to me that the first offense committed by man would be mirrored in some way by the last offense.  In Biblical terms, then, I would expect that the nature of the Great Apostasy near the end of the book of Apocalypse would be similar in form and meaning to the nature of the fall of Adam and Eve.  We know the Great Apostasy will be in the form of receiving a mark on the forehead or right hand, and the mark somehow is or contains the mark of the beast, which is his number: 666.

So, what was the nature of the sin of Adam and Eve?  They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  This is significant.  Immediately following this error, they knew themselves to be naked and were ashamed.  You could say that the knowledge gained through the forbidden fruit was knowledge of self.  They were supposed to focus on God, not themselves.

If you follow so far, ask yourself this question: what is the ultimate knowledge of self, that if you had complete mastery of this knowledge and control of it that you could commit the ultimate sin in the quest to "be like gods", which would be trying to remake man in your own image, by natural means?  (Remember God created man in His image, by supernatural means)

That knowledge is DNA.  It's the instruction set God uses to determine all the characteristics of a person from the way they look to diseases they might carry or be immune to, to the person's temperament.

Moreover, the one clue that we have from scripture regarding the mark of the beast is that it is the "number of man".  Greek, like many other languages, doesn't have articles, so it can be written as "number of man" or "number of a man".  Either way, it works to my point, here.  If the mark of the beast is related to DNA, it certainly fits that clue perfectly.

This is more than just reasonable, it seems likely that this is the meaning, given what we know these days.  Now what does that mean regarding the form of the Great Apostasy?  It would almost certainly take the form of placing our faith and our hope in medicinal science, rather than in God.  Imagine if the antichrist were to appear in the next few years, and as part of his one-world government, he mandated that all people be given a vaccine with a built-in, scannable sign (they already want to do this - ironically, and correctly, it's called luciferase, because it emits light), which is an answer to the latest deadly pandemic.  The vaccine itself, following in the footsteps of our current Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, manipulates the most basic structures of the human person (DNA and/or RNA) to make a person immune to covid-21, or covid-22, or whatever it happens to be, then.  By trying to manipulate our own basic structures, we are putting our faith in science, and specifically medical science.  If we do so at the demand of the antichrist, we are doing it to save our lives, while turning our backs on God and His promise of eternal life.  It is apparent, though not necessarily formal, apostasy.

Has anyone looked at the symbol of the medical community?  Most of you reading this are probably more familiar with it than I am.  It's two snakes (which is often the symbol of satan), wrapped around a staff or rod (which is the rod of a mythical god, a false idol) to represent DNA, with wings as of an angel at the top.  I mean, yes, the way that I'm looking at it is not how most people look at it, but in light of what we're discussing here, it's almost prophetic.  There are different symbols for different medical fields, but this is the main one.  All of them depict the snake around the staff of a false god.

All of this being said, I do not claim to understand how DNA correlates to the number six-hundred and sixty-six.  Only that it fits the description that we have.  I am not a prophet or a seer.  I'm just a regular Catholic dude who's asking questions that I think are pertinent to the signs of our times. 

My main point is this: do not trust the vaccines coming out, especially the RNA vaccines.  Do not wear blasphemous face masks based on lies, which hide the image of God in each of us, and cause us to be less civil and less charitable toward one another.  Refuse the vaccines in the name of God, refuse the face masks in the name of God.  Pray for those who have been blinded to the truth.

And may God have mercy on all of us sinners.  Amen.

[Luigi]

The logo of the snake on the staff, or of the two snakes on the staff, is called the Caduceus. It's derived from Moses. The people were being bitten by snakes; God told Moses to make a bronze snake and put it on a rod - when the people were bitten by a snake, they could look at the snake on the rod and be healed. That's why the snake is used in this emblem as a symbol of healing. 

[SicutColumba]

I'm going to link an article from a Protestant author which isn't something I'd ever do normally:

http://academiclogos.wpengine.com/the-covid-vaccine-has-666-written-all-over-it-and-why-that-doesnt-matter-according-to-revelation/

Yours is a very evangelical Christian view which the Catholic Church has never proposed. This kind of doom-laden eschatology was not prominent in the Middle Ages and only sprung up with the corruption of doctrine by Protestantism. 

There's a great book on this by Father Stephen C. Doyle called Apocalypse: A Catholic Perspective on the Book of Revelation. I also recall reading excerpts from a Catholic book on American literature when we were studying Nathaniel Hawthorne and it was very clear that this highly literal interpretation of the Apocalypse is not an idea rooted in Catholic thought and is in fact especially prominent in Calvinism. (If anybody has any idea of a book on this subject I would be grateful if you knew what the title was because I would love to revisit it.)

Here's another article that might help enlighten things:

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4738

Even the SSPX has approved the vaccine. I think that in this situation we need to defer to the wisdom of the Church and be not puffed up. The Church is wise and will not lead us into sin. 

43 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Greek, like many other languages, doesn't have articles, so it can be written as "number of man" or "number of a man".  Either way, it works to my point, here.  If the mark of the beast is related to DNA, it certainly fits that clue perfectly.

One last thing, Greek very much does have articles. As someone who has studied both Attic and Koine Greek for eight years now I can say that a deep immersion in the history and languages of antiquity and of the early Church can help to strengthen our faith by reminding us of our roots and giving us a clear comprehension of the wisdom of the Gospels and of the Fathers of the Church, and we can avoid falling into errors that were condemned by the early Church. 

 

6 minutes ago, Luigi said:

The logo of the snake on the staff, or of the two snakes on the staff, is called the Caduceus. It's derived from Moses. The people were being bitten by snakes; God told Moses to make a bronze snake and put it on a rod - when the people were bitten by a snake, they could look at the snake on the rod and be healed. That's why the snake is used in this emblem as a symbol of healing. 

Nice point, but the symbol of one snake on the staff is the symbol for medicine in the West, derived from the Rod of Asclepius, associated with the Greek god of medicine, in whose temples non-venomous snakes (the Aesculapian snake) would be used in sacrificial rituals and would actually crawl around in Greek infirmaries. It doesn't have its origins in Biblical symbolism and never has wings. Two snakes represent the caduceus, the staff of Hermes, which is a symbol of commerce. But the two symbols are very frequently confused.

source: am classics major. 

[fides' Jack]

31 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

Even the SSPX has approved the vaccine. I think that in this situation we need to defer to the wisdom of the Church and be not puffed up. The Church is wise and will not lead us into sin. 

The validity of the SSPX is very much in debate.  If they approve it, they do so wrongly.  There are several actual bishops in the Church who condemn the vaccines.  Their voice is the one I'm listening to.

31 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

One last thing, Greek very much does have articles.

I've never studied Greek.  I'll take your word for it.  Either way, it still fits incredibly well, and I said as much already.

31 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

Nice point, but the symbol of one snake on the staff is the symbol for medicine in the West, derived from the Rod of Asclepius, associated with the Greek god of medicine, in whose temples non-venomous snakes (the Aesculapian snake) would be used in sacrificial rituals and would actually crawl around in Greek infirmaries. It doesn't have its origins in Biblical symbolism and never has wings. Two snakes represent the caduceus, the staff of Hermes, which is a symbol of commerce. But the two symbols are very frequently confused.

Again, I'm not very well versed.  But this helped me prove my point, as this is largely driven by both greed and power.  According to this article, the sources are not related to medicine, but it nevertheless became a medical symbol:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus_as_a_symbol_of_medicine.  That makes it even more pertinent.  Thanks for pointing that out!

31 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

Yours is a very evangelical Christian view which the Catholic Church has never proposed. This kind of doom-laden eschatology was not prominent in the Middle Ages and only sprung up with the corruption of doctrine by Protestantism. 

What view specifically are you talking about?  You posted some links.  I perused a few of them.  Please, I strive to keep my views clearly within the confines of Church teaching, and I believe I've been successful in doing so here - so I would definitely appreciate it if you could point to one example that would be erroneous from a Catholic perspective.

Or is it just the general feel of my post that is doomsday-ish?  If so, that's a pretty bad argument.

My thoughts on the end times are largely based on a book called "The End of the Present World":

 

If that book is good enough for a Doctor of the Church, it's good enough for me.

So in what specifically am I in error? 

32 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

source: am classics major. 

Given that the education system has proven to mostly be a giant indoctrination machine, that doesn't work in your favor.

34 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

this highly literal interpretation of the Apocalypse is not an idea rooted in Catholic thought

Which part do you think I take too literally?  My entire post was mostly speaking in general terms...  Or do you think that the mark of the beast is not an actual mark?

Edited January 25, 2021 by fides' Jack

[fides' Jack]

50 minutes ago, Luigi said:

The logo of the snake on the staff, or of the two snakes on the staff, is called the Caduceus. It's derived from Moses. The people were being bitten by snakes; God told Moses to make a bronze snake and put it on a rod - when the people were bitten by a snake, they could look at the snake on the rod and be healed. That's why the snake is used in this emblem as a symbol of healing. 

I actually did know that.  I looked it up months ago when I was first contemplating all of this.

It's also a symbol of the devil, and, it could be argued, more prominently so, at least in Western culture today.

[SicutColumba]

7 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

The validity of the SSPX is very much in debate.  If they approve it, they do so wrongly.  There are several actual bishops in the Church who condemn the vaccines.  Their voice is the one I'm listening to.

 

I've never studied Greek.  I'll take your word for it.  Either way, it still fits incredibly well.

 

Again, I'm not very well versed.  But this helped me prove my point, as this is largely driven by both greed and power.  According to this article, the sources are not related to medicine, but it nevertheless became a medical symbol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus_as_a_symbol_of_medicine.  That makes it even more pertinent.  Thanks for pointing that out!

What view specifically are you talking about?  You posted some links.  I perused a few of them.  Please, I strive to keep my views clearly within the confines of Church teaching, and I believe I've been successful in doing so here - so I would definitely appreciate it if you could point to one example that would be erroneous from a Catholic perspective.

Or is it just the general feel of my post that is doomsday-ish?  If so, that's a pretty bad argument.

My thoughts on the end times are largely based on a book called "The End of the Present World":

 

If that book is good enough for a Doctor of the Church, it's good enough for me.

So in what specifically am I in error? 

Catholic tradition has never interpreted the book of the Apocalypse literally. It represents the eternal struggle between God and Satan and Christians and evil. It is meant to give strength in times of persecution and warn us, through the use of heavily metaphorical language common at the time of Saint John, against straying from Our Lord. Only with the onslaught of Protestantism has the metaphorical imagery been taken literally. It's a Calvinist idea that has gained a peculiar American bent. In any case, the mark of the beast has historically thought to be Roman currency (which has been taken to be involuntary and is not the same thing as willfully worshipping the Antichrist) under the persecution of Nero. There are many, many articles and works by faithful and orthodox Catholic authors supporting this theory and I would invite you to draw from this well of eschatological wisdom. The Lamb's Supper by Scott Hahn comes to mind. It's very important to remember that not every verse of Scripture is meant to be taken literally and exegesis is a very delicate and potentially error-laden topic, and it's best to rely on the Church for the interpretation of Scripture and for answers to thorny moral issues; in this case, the Church has approved the use of the vaccine and it is to Her that I will defer. 

I hope you haven't misunderstood my meaning. I don't at all think that what you are saying is necessarily against Church teaching, or is heresy or anything, I am just saying that tradition gives us other possibilities to consider and that historically the Church has thought otherwise. This is simply my judgment and I'm nothing but a random person on the internet. In any case, we know not the day nor the hour. 

[fides' Jack]

8 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

The Lamb's Supper by Scott Hahn comes to mind. It's very important to remember that not every verse of Scripture is meant to be taken literally and exegesis is a very delicate and potentially error-laden topic, and it's best to rely on the Church for the interpretation of Scripture and for answers to thorny moral issues.

I couldn't agree more.  Not only that, but I will also agree that specifically the book of Revelation is almost entirely using imagery to convey non-literal meanings.  

But the traditional view of the Catholic Church is that in the end, there will be a literal antichrist, who will be one, individual man, and that he will require all people to submit to him, and that there will be given people a sign of submission - which Scripture calls the mark of the beast. 

That's as literal as I have taken anything, and that's what the early Church Fathers largely agreed on.  

However, the Church Fathers went even further than that.  They taught that the antichrist will be of Jewish descent, and will reign from the Holy Land.  I didn't even take it that far, so no, unless you have something more against a very specific thing that I said, I didn't take anything too literally.

14 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

In any case, the mark of the beast has historically thought to be Roman currency (which has been taken to be involuntary and is not the same thing as willfully worshipping the Antichrist) under the persecution of Nero

That has been one interpretation, and that interpretation was not believed by most of the saints who had something to say on the subject throughout the Church's history.  Or, more specifically, some of them believed that the Roman currency was another precursor of darker times in the future, during the actual time of the apocalypse.

10 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

the Church has approved the use of the vaccine and it is to Her that I will defer. 

I disagree.  The Church hasn't approved the use of the vaccine.  The pope has, and probably most of the bishops.  I choose to listen more to the bishops who have condemned the vaccine, strictly because they have been more true to the Catholic Church's teachings in other areas, and so I trust them, more.  In fact, if not for them, I almost certainly would not have created this thread.  

 

18 minutes ago, SicutColumba said:

I hope you haven't misunderstood my meaning. I don't at all think that what you are saying is necessarily against Church teaching, or is heresy or anything, I am just saying that tradition gives us other possibilities to consider and that historically the Church has thought otherwise. This is simply my judgment and I'm nothing but a random person on the internet. In any case, we know not the day nor the hour. 

Thanks - that helps.  

Historically, the Church has had many different interpretations of the book of revelation, and of the apocalyptic portions of the book of Daniel.  I'm choosing the one that seems to me to be the most consistent with approved Church teaching, with approved apparitions, with the writings of the saints, and other sources of our Tradition.

I agree, we know not the day nor the hour.  Nor the year.  We might have some idea as to the decade, but it is not certain.

https://countdowntothekingdom.com

[Anastasia]

4 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

It's two snakes (which is often the symbol of satan), wrapped around a staff or rod

I am quite sure that looking for signs like “two snakes” etc. do not lead anywhere because it is very superficial. For instance, Ecumenical Patriarch has two snakes on his stuff.

The story in Eden conveys how Adam and Eve suddenly stopped trusting God. They believed Satan and they believed him despite their close relationship with God. It did not occur to them to talk to God, to question him or to be angry with Him, to beg Him to save them from death after the partaking of knowledge etc. No, they hid from them and later engaged in blame shifting in a very narcissistic way: Eve blamed a snake, Adam blamed Eve and also, again in a very narcissistic fashion, he also blamed God for giving him such a wife (it is really a case study of personality disorders). Satan is a narcissist; after losing trust in God human acquired selfish (narcissistic) feature. It is astonishing how quickly both Adam and Eve changed, being poisoned by the stolen knowledge.

I see the above as the universal story written in a human psyche. Each of us can fall just like that. There is no need in conspiracies, signs etc. The Apocalypse happiness within human psyche via the choice: trust or fear, humility or pride, “Your will” or “my will”. “My will” is a vector towards satan.

Unlike you I am not so concerned with mRNA vaccines because they have one important feature: they do not use in their design and production on the stem cells of the aborted human embryos (they are tainted by the murder because they are tested on those cells yet it is possible to stop testing them like that and still have the vaccines). To me the major road mark on the way to doom is the Church’s’ leader blessing of the vaccines which used the embryo stem cells as “the factories” as they put it. I.e. the Churches did not urge Christians to reject such vaccines no matter what and demand ethical ones which– this is the most important – exist. Western Church used its “remote cooperation with the evil” argument. Eastern Church (some) began cracking analogy between the Sacrifice of Christ and a sacrifice of a baby. Both are thoroughly obnoxious. Both excuse “civilized cannibalism” for the sake of “common good”. So, if you want to find the sing here is the sign, of doing evil for the sake of common good. It is a very biblical sign as well.

And, to make it even more biblical, here is another sign: in Salisbury the vaccines were given in the Cathedral, like a new communion. Hence first the faithful in the Churches were deprived of sacrament (for the sake of common good) and then the new sacrament was given, again for the sake of common good. It is very subtle. I do not believe someone is orchestrating all this, we are simply seeing now the materialized projections of rotten human psyche falling further and further away from God.

[I will not engage in debates how those vaccines with “abortion materials” can be acceptable because it is quite clear to right now that one who does not get it cannot change their mind via an argument. It is something in a heart.]

The Apocalypse happiness = The Apocalypse happens

[Era Might]

5 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

So, what was the nature of the sin of Adam and Eve?  They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  This is significant.  Immediately following this error, they knew themselves to be naked and were ashamed.  You could say that the knowledge gained through the forbidden fruit was knowledge of self.  They were supposed to focus on God, not themselves.

If you follow so far, ask yourself this question: what is the ultimate knowledge of self, that if you had complete mastery of this knowledge and control of it that you could commit the ultimate sin in the quest to "be like gods", which would be trying to remake man in your own image, by natural means?  (Remember God created man in His image, by supernatural means)

My main point is this: do not trust the vaccines coming out, especially the RNA vaccines.  Do not wear blasphemous face masks based on lies, which hide the image of God in each of us, and cause us to be less civil and less charitable toward one another.  Refuse the vaccines in the name of God, refuse the face masks in the name of God.  Pray for those who have been blinded to the truth.

After Adam hides himself in the garden, what does God say to him? "Adam, where are you?" In other words, he wants Adam to come to a knowledge of himself, not hide, not bury himself in ignorance. He wants Adam to THINK for a moment. Where are you?

Man is a god because God is his Father. Like Father, like son.

"I said, You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High. But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Psalm 82)

It is said that God created ex nihilo, out of nothing, but this is not true. God created from the WORD of his mouth. Let there be light, he said, and there was light. In the beginning was the word. Life and death is in the tongue.

Knowledge of self is knowledge of God, and vice versa. All we know of God is what we know of ourselves, for we are his true and perfect image. There is no supernature except the word of our mouth. That is the spiritual principle in man. There is nothing God can do that man cannot do, for we create all things by the word of our mouth, just as he did.

God is not something outside ourselves. As Jesus said, the kingdom of God does not come by observation, for the kingdom of God is within you.

God says in Isaiah, come, let us reason together. Reason. Reason. Reason. Life is not a mystery. The mark of the beast is the word of the beast, just as the mark of God is the word of God. I don't think you need to look for some fantastical "mark" on the body to discover the mark of the beast. Judge a tree by the fruit it bears. The fruit proceeds from the seed, and a single word is the seed of all things, good and evil. This is why Jesus said, let your yes be yes and your no be no. Anything more is of the evil one. Fear is of the evil one. Irrationality is of the evil one. These things proceed from an overactive mind. God asks simple questions. Adam, where art thou? We extract all kinds of complicated things from that, but to Adam, it was a simple question. Where are you? That's it. Like the prodigal son, God wanted Adam to come to himself, to see himself even as he is seen.

The mark of the beast is the word that proceeds from his mouth. Faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing. Those who follow the beast hear and follow, just as the sheep hear and follow the Good Shepherd. In the beginning was the word. Life is not a mystery, everything in life comes back to the word of our mouth. That is the seed of all life and the sword of all death.

[fides' Jack]

20 hours ago, Era Might said:

[a lot of blasphemy]

I'm not sure I've read anything quite so blasphemous and heretical as this on Phatmass, or really very many other places, either.  This kind of attitude is exactly why the human race is in need of correction.  

You've fallen prey to the words of the beast, friend.  I wish you luck and many graces.  I'll pray for you.

[Era Might]

52 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I'm not sure I've read anything quite so blasphemous and heretical as this on Phatmass, or really very many other places, either.  This kind of attitude is exactly why the human race is in need of correction.  

You've fallen prey to the words of the beast, friend.  I wish you luck and many graces.  I'll pray for you.

If we're in need of correction, aren't you the one who is supposed to correct us? Burying your head in the sand and waiting for the world to end isn't going to correct anyone.

[fides' Jack]

Who's we?

And why would you think I'm burying my head in the sand?  And why would you think I'm trying to correct people?  That wasn't my purpose here.  You said a lot of blasphemous things, and I called you out on that, in fraternal correction.  I haven't set out to correct anyone else.

Or are you saying that the Christian's job in general is to correct people?  I disagree with that statement, quite strongly.

[Era Might]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

Who's we?

And why would you think I'm burying my head in the sand?  And why would you think I'm trying to correct people?  That wasn't my purpose here.  You said a lot of blasphemous things, and I called you out on that, in fraternal correction.  I haven't set out to correct anyone else.

Or are you saying that the Christian's job in general is to correct people?  I disagree with that statement, quite strongly.

"We" meaning "the world" that you were referring to.

You started a thread, accused someone of blasphemy and heresy, and that's it. If you disagreed with something I said, you could have responded instead of telling me I'm a heretical blasphemer.

Anyway, no worries, I don't need any correction. I'm just suggesting to you that if your purpose is just to talk to yourself, keep on doing what you're doing. I thought you were interested in a discussion. What else are we here for?

Take care.

[fides' Jack]

5 minutes ago, Era Might said:

"We" meaning "the world" that you were referring to.

Oh, I see.  No, I can't correct the world.  Only the grace of God can do that.  If He wants to use me, He knows I'm pretty dumb and that He'll need to be pretty direct.

6 minutes ago, Era Might said:

If you disagreed with something I said, you could have responded instead of telling me I'm a heretical blasphemer.

I disagreed with almost everything you said.

I'm not interested in a discussion with someone who's argument is: "Knowledge of self is knowledge of God, and vice versa. All we know of God is what we know of ourselves, for we are his true and perfect image. There is no supernature except the word of our mouth. That is the spiritual principle in man. There is nothing God can do that man cannot do, for we create all things by the word of our mouth, just as he did."

That whole paragraph is evil and demonic.

Really, there were a couple points in your first post here that were true enough, but statements like this should turn off any Catholic.  Your religion is showing as "None of the above".  My point is to be that guy standing on the corner (in this case a virtual corner), telling my fellow Catholics that we're about to face some very difficult times, and that we all need to be spiritually prepared.  (Repent!  The end is imminent!!)  If your response is, basically, "No, you're wrong and you're taking it in the wrong context and man is God and our word is just as powerful as God's, because God can't do anything that man cannot do", then no, I have no interest in even entertaining such a blasphemous notion.

So no, I'm not interested in that discussion.  Anastasia had a couple interesting takes, which I hope to respond to, but yours required an immediate rejection.

[Era Might]

1 minute ago, fides' Jack said:

I'm not interested in a discussion

Thanks for clearing that up, I'll make sure not to interact with you anymore.

You're not as stupid as you think. Cheer up! Man is a creature who is wonderfully and fearfully made! There's nothing you cannot do with the active intelligence of your mind.

I hope you find all the eternal peace and happiness you're waiting for.