Kneeling at the Sanctus, etc at 1970 Mass

[Chiquitunga]

This is something I’ve wondered for a while... First I prefer the 1962 Mass, etc, and one of the things I love is all the kneeling, like from the very start (even though I have bad knees lol).

I go to the new Mass too though, and am not one to be extremely critical of it, at least not vocally. I am going to Calvary, and I am thankful to the priest offering Mass.. he made the sacrifice of his life to God, and I can be present there and receive the Holy Eucharist. Anyway but this is not the topic I meant to bring up.

At the new Mass/Ordinary Form, etc there are always people that kneel at the Sanctus and Agnus Dei when the missal directs people to kneel after these prayers (in the US at least) I think one reason they did this maybe is to encourage the congregation to sing this maybe (rather than just/or mostly the choir as it is at the Traditional Mass, although people can sing) & usually we don’t sing and kneel at the same time so much .. although I don’t know. I really am ignorant in this area.
 

But what I’m wondering is, is there a particular reason why some people will always go down on their knees for the Sanctus & Agnus Dei at the new Mass? I think it is appropriate, and like I said, I prefer the old Mass- but at the same time, the missal of 1970 has the kneeling right after these prayers and I feel like there is always some strain/disunity when you have some people always going down then. Does anyone else experience this? (But I don’t mean to pull the disunity argument. I am 100% in favor of Communion on the tongue while kneeling, etc)

I wonder... maybe there is actually some document or something I am missing where it says the congregation kneels at either point... and also I know there are differences between countries and bishops conferences etc. 

I guess I just wonder if anyone here has any insights on this that I may not be aware of.

I sometimes almost wonder, is there some private revelation out there I have never heard of where Our Lord was very offended with people not kneeling then. If so, I can understand why some people are really quick to kneel then. I don’t mean to judge anyone by the way, or say one way is better, etc. I’m just trying to understand. Personally I kneel after the Sanctus and Agnus Dei if I’m at a new Mass.

Just found this by the way .. slightly different question but helpful answer. 

https://catholicexchange.com/kneel-after-the-agnus-dei

Edited January 22, 2021 by Chiquitunga

[Ash Wednesday]

I've always knelt at those prayers -- I was born in the 70s and grew up in the 80s in the US so I recall that being the norm for me. 

I live in England now and the church I attend mass at also kneels at those prayers. I think bishops at one point were eventually allowed some flexibility to determine whether someone kneels or stands after the Agnus. 

I remember one time I was at a mass in Sweden, the norm at the time at this particular parish was people standing at the Agnus. There was a visiting Polish priest substituting and when he saw the congregation doing this, apparently he was quite offended by people not kneeling at "Ecce Agnus Dei/Behold the Lamb of God." I don't speak Polish but after the mass, reading between the lines in my garbled Swedish, knew it was quite a culture shock for him (the allowance to stand was fairly new at the time) and people he spoke with were, for lack of a better term, offended that he was offended.  Honestly this unfortunate situation could have been avoided if there was a universal norm and kneeling is my preference. Obviously people with physical ailments are exempt and that doesn't apply to them.
 

[SicutColumba]

Hello! I don’t know where you are in the world but here in France (I attend a TLM) the faithful are very free with the rubrics and often do whatever they please when it comes to sitting standing and kneeling. I’ve noticed that in the US the rubrics for the faithful depend somewhat on the chapel but pretty much everybody does the same thing at the same chapel. In France, however, I see people stay on their knees the whole mass, stand for the whole mass except for the Canon, kneel for the introït while everyone else stands, and every kind of permutation of the rubrics you could think of. In certain ways I think France still believes she is the eldest daughter of the Church and is therefore free to do as she wishes. It is very common to see people practice devotions in the rubrics, such as bowing the head after the Consecration and Communion. It’s not as rare as you might think to see people prostrate themselves and kiss the floor after mass.
I am unaware of any such revelation about the gestures in mass and I think it is a matter of local custom. I personally have always and always will stand for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, but at my parents’ church they kneel just after the preface, which I don’t particularly like but do because it’s the local custom at their chapel. 
 

In France, too, especially among young Catholics, everyone responds to the priest at whatever speed and rhythm they want, which can actually be really distracting and disturbing. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by SicutColumba

[Chiquitunga]

Thanks to both of you! Good insights! And I am in Chicago. 

[Ash Wednesday]

14 hours ago, Chiquitunga said:

Thanks to both of you! Good insights! And I am in Chicago. 

Oooh! If I were in the area I'd love to go to a mass at St. John Cantius, as I also prefer traditional liturgies. Beautiful church there with the Latin Mass there as well. 
 

[truthfinder]

Chiqui,

I think this might be the same question as why some people cross themselves after the Confiteor or beat their breast at the Agnes Dei in the OF - they’re traditions that came out of the the EF and just carried on. 
iirc, the OF missal actually does not direct whether to kneel or not for the Agnes Dei. Or whether to stand directly after the Consecration. It’s the GIRM which does that, and it’s a national document. Further complicating matters is that these practices were very much diocese to diocese and parish to parish. There was such a commotion in my previous diocese when my nation’s GIRM stated that all people must wait to kneel or sit until everyone had received Communion. Finally, the bishop said we could do what we wanted. In another diocese, they had a long standing practice of kneeling all the way through to the doxology and then again as the Agnes Dei - this again technically removed by the GIRM. Clarification was made that where this had been practiced before it was “laudable to retain”. 
 

I think this sort of postural unity completely overlooks the much more important spiritual unity that’s occurring. And like SicutColumba says, even within the EF there can be huge variations. Diocese vs diocese, nation or linguistic and cultural area, and religious community or diocescan differences and traditions. 

[chrysostom]

There is no way to tell inner dispositions but I would think as long as these things are done in a spirit of reverence I would not worry too much about "strain/disunity" caused by some people choosing to kneel before everyone else. Yes, they are most often church members but they are also pilgrims towards God and it can be quite demoralising to be criticised from within your own church for practices which you yourself don't seek to impose on anyone else.

I know your post wasn't critical of them, so this is rather just me and my own ruminations.

For my own part I feel rather inclined towards traditional postures, but also feel that living together in harmony necessarily entails acceptance of more superficial disharmony.

[truthfinder]

@chrysostom, thank you writing more clearly what I was hinting at in my own post.

[Lilllabettt]

I can't speak to the reasons, but in most places worldwide there is less emphasis on the lay people and what they are doing in terms of posture.  In Rome for example people stand sit kneel and it's no one's concern. In America we have these concerns like, can I kneel for receiving communion, can I kneel after communion, etc and I think the rest of the world looks at us like odd ducks. The bishop where I grew up gave an order that all should stand after receiving communion; then there was an inquiry sent to the Vatican asking if lay people are allowed to kneel, and the answer came back, of course they are. The question was thought odd and the bishop caring enough to regulate this in the first place was odd. Same thing with holding hands during the our father. I have read all sorts of reasons it is theologically incorrect but there's nothing to say you can't,  and honestly it would be, globally speaking, odd for anyone (outside of liturgy nerds) to care what posture a lay person uses during Mass. 

[Chiquitunga]

Thanks for more very helpful, insightful comments!! Very good indeed!

Yeah, I promise I do not mean to be critical, but just bring up a topic and thoughts that come into my head at Mass to try to understand better. The strain I mentioned actually is something more coming from within me; when I see a few people kneeling I am like, oh that is nice, I’d like to kneel now too, but wait most people aren’t.. I don’t know what to do.

ah that is good to have clearly the distinction between the 1970 missal and the GIRM, truthfinder. (your posts always fit well with your screen name by the way! I have observed that many times in the past too, like in vocation station)

Yeah, my original post was more stream of conscience rambling and I thought some 1970 missal (like paper hand missal for the laity) I saw once said that, but probably not - or if one did, it would have taken that from the GIRM. 

I was reading in the Canadian GIRM that unity in posture is important to them, by the way, but I actually didn’t go pick up my own US GIRM and check out what  they say.

Anyway, this is all great and well appreciated!

Yes, St. John Cantius is a wonderful place I am at very often. 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Chiquitunga

[Chiquitunga]

12 minutes ago, Chiquitunga said:

I was reading in the Canadian GIRM that unity in posture is important to them, by the way, but I actually didn’t go pick up my own US GIRM and check out what  they say.

I was adding a thought that was too late to edit. It was something like .. in the past when I’ve read through parts of the GIRM I’ve been disappointed. The GIRM is put together by the local bishop conference right? 

Anyway, I’m asking questions I could easily research, but am being lazy (wants to add monkey covering face with hands but can’t find here!)

(with all the variations and confusion sometimes also, I feel like, I’m glad I’m headed to a community with only the 1962 missal, but good to understand there are variations there too)

anyway I’ll go do my research and ask priests who know what they are talking about in person lol! This thread is a good start though! Thanks again& feel free to add more thoughts! 

Happy Sunday!