Mary

[[jas]]

I tried to find the thread about this, but I couldn't, so I started a new one. Oh well.

People have said that, amongst other things, the way the catholic church relates to Mary has been the same since Jesus left.

However, on your own web site (the timeline page) it says this:

431 [ad]At the Council of Ephesus, the cult of the Virgin gains support as Mary is deemed Mother of God.

-- http://www.phatmass.com/reading_room/timeline/

So... Mary has only been seen as "Mother of God" since 431AD, not since the time of Jesus.

So, explain to me again why you consider a massive change in what you believe to be okay when it obviously wasn't in the "tradition" that the apostles "passed down"?

[Good Friday]

So... Mary has only been seen as "Mother of God" since 431AD, not since the time of Jesus.

This isn't quite accurate. The title Mother of God was officially defined at the Council of Ephesus, but Christians were calling her that before 431 A.D. Mary has been called Mother of the Lord since before Jesus (cf. Lk 1:43). Now, if you confess that Jesus is Lord and God, and that Mary is the Mother of Jesus the Lord as Scripture affirms, then it follows that Mary is the Mother of God. When St. Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of the Lord, she called her the Mother of God.

This doctrine did not change, it has always been a part of the Faith. However, doctrine does develop. It was the development of doctrine that led the Council of Ephesus to officially define that Mary is the Mother of God. The Council defined that not to exalt Mary, but to defend the doctrine that Jesus is True God and true man. Some heretics were saying that Jesus "passed through" Mary, and didn't actually receive human flesh. Other heretics were saying that Jesus somehow merged with God the Son later in life, and that He wasn't True God and true man at birth.

By calling Mary the Mother of God, they affirmed both Jesus' divinity and humanity. Everything about Mary points to Jesus, just as the star of Bethlehem in all its glory only served to point to the Infant Jesus in His manger.

[cmotherofpirl]

It was offically defined then because some heretics were saying Jesus was all divine and not human at all.

Doctrine is always further explained when it is attacked.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]

For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp [145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.

[mulls]

honest question

if i can call mary 'mother,' can i call abraham 'great great great great.....grandpa?'

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't see why not. Doesn't Paul call him our father in faith?

[mulls]

on that note, how come catholics pray to saints, but never to David, or Abraham, or Noah, or anyone in the OT?

[mulls]

or do you?

[cmotherofpirl]

I have had "conversations" with Noah on several subjects, especially on the saving on misquitoes, and how he could put up with some many animals particularly in mating season.

I have thanked Abraham for his courage in following an unknown God to an unknown land.

Does that count?

[cmotherofpirl]

I guess I should add, as a Catholic, I am connected to all those "gone before me marked with the sign of faith" in the Communion of Saints. THerefore I feel free to communicate ( or pray, visit with, ask for prayers from) with any or all of them.

Sort of like the large phatmass phamily here, except they are up there rooting for us, interceding for us, and wishing us well 24/7.

So as I am reading the Pentateuch ( first 5 books of the OT) this year, I am having many interesting conversations

All are connected in this Body of Christ, whether they are in heaven, in purgatory, or right here on earth.

[ironmonk]

on that note, how come catholics pray to saints, but never to David, or Abraham, or Noah, or anyone in the OT?

Jews prayed to saints. Not everything is in Scripture; No Jew ever believed that all they needed was the OT.

Ever hear of the Kaddish ?

(from Jewish site: http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish)

Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." (this is to the deceased) and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead.

-------------------------------------

The saints are intercessors.

As we see the rich man pray to father Abraham in the Parable that Jesus speaks of.

Luke 16:22

When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,

23 and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

24 And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.'

Prayer is a way of keeping communion with the body of Christ that is in Heaven. There is only One Body of Christ - The Church... The Church is on Earth, and in Heaven.... Everyone in the Church is called to pray for each other.

When we pray to the saints, we are asking them to pray to Christ for us and with us, just like I would ask for you to pray for me, I can ask the saints in Heaven.

Some qoutes, please note the dates:

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

Ad Majorem Dei Glorium,

ironmonk

[Cure of Ars]

Mary is the mother of God.

"And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

You have to remeber that the Jews did not say the name of God. Instead they used the word Lord.

Taking this a step further Mary’s our mom.

“Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” (Rev 12:17)

The woman in the context of this passage is the on who gave birth to Jesus (Rev 12:2) i.e. Mary and we are her “offspring”. So she is our mother as well. God bless

Edited September 1, 2003 by Cure of Ars

[Chrysologus]

Mary, Mary, quite contrary!

[VeraMaria]

Mary is the mother of God. 

"And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

You have to remeber that the Jews did not say the name of God.  Instead they used the word Lord.

Taking this a step further Mary’s our mom.

“Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.” (Rev 12:17)

The woman in the context of this passage is the on who gave birth to Jesus (Rev 12:2) i.e. Mary and we are her “offspring”.  So she is our mother as well.  God bless

Go Cure de Ars!!