Giving Stuff Away Before Entering

[Feankie]

"So you know her, so what? I didn't use any identifying names of the person or the community or the actual location. Are you planning on outing her? Those who actually know her wouldn't ask this question."

Please don't descend into sniping.   This is such a psychologically volatile and personal topic that it does everyone a disservice by posting second-hand information.  If you yourself have experienced injustice in relation to RL, well, that's one thing.  But posting about the experiences of a friend is quite another.  

This topic has morphed a bit and is now dealing with the topic of unhealthy and abusive congregations of nuns/sisters/priests.  It's delicate, sensitive, and often misunderstood or misinterpreted.  We, as outsiders looking in, really don't have the ability to understand what really happened.  As for details?  Identifying an institution simply by calling it a Carmel in the UK does a disservice to other Carmelite Monasteries in the UK and elsewhere, for that matter..  You're, in essence, maligning them all by not identifying the one that you're referring to.

Be very careful here as it borders on slander.

[Anastasia]

8 hours ago, Lea said:

But as someone discerning religious life [with a community that does not cover up the fact that there are sisters in need of psychological treatment with them as well] I feel actually kind of discouraged by what I'm reading here. 

This is real problem. I also began feeling discouraged, long ago, since I learnt about the child sexual abuse in the Church and then witnessed an emotional abuse and its covering firsthand. I regret that I lost the exhausted image of the Church and I often wonder how would be if I did not know. 

I can only repeat that we should hold on Christ, to surrender to Him and He will carry us and will not allow to sink in despair, turning every discouragement into something useful (it is a kind of a redemption is progress), for example a deeper self-knowledge. I am so grateful to God that He put me in touch with the authentic Carmelite spirituality that is all about being with God in the desert, stripped off all illusions about oneself and others while holding on Christ and His love. "God and I on earth" as a holy Greek nun Gerontissa Gavriilia used to say.

[Anastasia]

37 minutes ago, Anastasia said:

exhausted image of the Church

exulted

[cruciatacara]

3 hours ago, Francis Clare said:

 

Be very careful here as it borders on slander.

No it doesn't, it doesn't even come near slander.

This is exactly the kind of thing that has been discussed in this thread, trying to sweep stuff under the carpet or avoid confronting the abuses that have happened. I didn't derail the thread, it was already veering into the direction of 'be careful not to throw everything out because things happen' and then describing various abuses etc that have happened when people were told to leave suddenly and in secret. 

And no, it didn't happen to me, it happened to someone I care about very much as a friend. I used it as an example of what CAN happen, not what WILL happen. And as a caution against burning your bridges behind you. I wish it had happened to me instead of her. 

I also didn't use the Carmel's name because that would have seemed more like slander (although being the truth makes it not slander). I did not malign ALL Carmels in the UK, merely told what occurred at one Carmel. 

As for sniping, I think the question of whether or not I have permission to post an example of an anonymous person in an anonymous community is more like sniping to me. Hearsay? Only in the legal sense that it was told by another person to me, but this isn't a court of law, it is a thread about giving up one's possessions to enter religious life. I see anecdotes like this posted all the time on this forum.

[beatitude]

18 hours ago, Lea said:

But as someone discerning religious life [with a community that does not cover up the fact that there are sisters in need of psychological treatment with them as well] I feel actually kind of discouraged by what I'm reading here. 

Bear in mind that psychological difficulties are not an automatic symptom of an unhealthy environment, and a community being open and upfront about the fact that they have sisters receiving mental health care is actually a very encouraging sign. It shows that they don't see mental health difficulties as a spiritual weakness or a personality flaw, but as a health condition that needs proper care like any other. This kind of pragmatism and openness is very promising.

It also helps to remember that abusive people and unhealthy communities are in the minority. This doesn't mean we should just brush them off or be dismissive of the issue, as even when a problem is perpetuated by a minority of people, that doesn't mean its consequences are any less painful or far-reaching. But it does mean that we shouldn't get nervous and start expecting to encounter the behaviour described in this thread all over the place.

It also means that we should be shrewd. Almost all the people I've encountered who had a negative experience in religious life were in more 'traditional' communities. While there is nothing wrong with seeking out a traditional expression of religious life, I think it's very easy for a naive discerner to assume that any harmful behaviour they find there must be part of monastic austerity, to be accepted along with the beautiful habits and picturesque customs as the way things are done. Genuine asceticism will help you to love others more deeply and to become more aware of your own worth in God's sight. If a practice is making you feel humiliated as opposed to humbled and tearing you down instead of building you up, then this is a sign that something is wrong.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Anastasia said:

I am so grateful to God that He put me in touch with the authentic Carmelite spirituality

 

[Lea]

2 hours ago, beatitude said:

This kind of pragmatism and openness is very promising.

Oh, absolutely. It's one of the reasons why I indeed am optimistic that I've found a rather healthy and strong community - perfect communities probably don't exist. 

My doubts are more abstract: do I really want to bind myself to this church in its current state? What if our bishops just go on trying to cover up abusive behaviour and so on? 

@SicutColumba sorry for leading this thread down another road. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Lea

[Feankie]

You know, this forum USED to be a place to discuss viewpoints and respect the opinions is others.  It has descended into a few people dominating the conversations with the attitude that “it’s my way or the highway.” And that’s sad.  It’s non- productive and self-serving.

There appears to be little respect for the opinions of others and a dismissal out of hand of their posts if they don’t fit a particular narrative of the dominant poster/s.

I wish you all Godspeed, but I’m sticking to other forums where ones age, experience, education, etc. are respected and know-it-all’s have not hijacked the conversation. Adios....

 

[beatitude]

36 minutes ago, Feankie said:

You know, this forum USED to be a place to discuss viewpoints and respect the opinions is others.  It has descended into a few people dominating the conversations with the attitude that “it’s my way or the highway.” And that’s sad.  It’s non- productive and self-serving.

There appears to be little respect for the opinions of others and a dismissal out of hand of their posts if they don’t fit a particular narrative of the dominant poster/s.

I wish you all Godspeed, but I’m sticking to other forums where ones age, experience, education, etc. are respected and know-it-all’s have not hijacked the conversation. Adios....

 

You've made many valuable contributions here and I think the point you made about not sharing second-hand experiences is valid, as that does leave room for miscommunication and means people may end up forming a judgement based on partial facts. However, caution can easily become an excuse for sweeping things under the carpet, so I think cruciatacara also made a fair point (especially as she didn't name specific people or communities). It's a genuinely thorny issue and people are going to disagree.

This isn't the first time you've made a 'goodbye' post complaining about other posters, which comes across as flouncing out. No one has posted derogatory things about your age, education, etc., and someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are disrespecting you.

OP, I think this thread may have gone too far off the original topic to be useful to you, so I'm going to lock it. Feel free to start a new thread if you'd like more answers.