More Carmelite Monasteries closing

[Sister Leticia]

On 11/26/2020 at 5:07 AM, Anastasia said:

Another change is that formation time increased to nine years now. That may be responsible for the lack of vocations; it is harder to commit to such a lengthy period of "preliminary" time when one can be sent back

Nine years is quite common in non-monastic orders, what with 3 years pre-vows (maybe longer, if there's a pre-postulancy stage), and usually at least 5-6 years in temporary vows, sometimes longer. Certainly, I prepared for and made my perpetual vows after 6 years of temporary ones.

I've heard lots of reasons for people being reluctant to enter religious life, but the length of formation isn't one of them! On the contrary, candidates are often relieved that it'll be a long time before any binding commitment. Even though you desire to give your whole self, you'll still enter with doubts and fears, and what ifs, even if you aren't conscious of them. 

I also haven't met anyone who worried about being "sent away": rather, the worry might be more about what if I discover this isn't what God wants for me...? - in which case, again, the prospect of several years of formation and discernment, and not being rushed to final vows, is helpful.

So, whatever else has been holding women back from entering monasteries in droves, it isn't the formation specified in Cor Orans - which, don't forget, has only been around for two years. Even if women were being put off, and seeking to join orders with a shorter formation, this will only have started happening in the past year or two. If a monastery is down to only a few ageing nuns or monks, then the lack of vocations/people actually staying will have been an issue for the past 20 or more years. 

[Antigonos]

I sometimes wonder whether anyone 18-25 years old can really understand what a "lifetime committment" is.  And not just in relation to religious life!   It amazes me that until the middle of the last century it was common for young women to be accepted into postulancy with no more than an introductory interview, and were taking permanent vows within 5 years.

[For a number of years I was active on an internet forum which gave practical advice to those wishing to move to Israel.  Over and over again, I'd read about the aspirations of young couples who had yet to begin families, and I'd ask them if they'd thought down the line, to the fact that their children would serve in the Israeli army, etc. and I'd always get an answer on the lines of "we won't have to think of that for a long time!"   That "long time" arrives much faster than one anticipates!  I arrived here at 28, and I'm 74 now --- and still adjusting to new realities.]

[Anastasia]

7 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Except that some Carmels don't seem to be experiencing a large influx of vocations.

That's right and this is why I was a bit surprised why you were asking about a purely hypothetical situation but answered anyway.

4 hours ago, Sister Leticia said:

So, whatever else has been holding women back from entering monasteries in droves, it isn't the formation specified in Cor Orans - which, don't forget, has only been around for two years.

I agree that there is a certain process in the world that makes entering monastery less attractive. That is an objective reality. At the same time, I see Cor Orans as an outcome of a corresponding process which has been going within the Church - the loss of understanding of contemplation/contemplative Orders as something that has an immense value in their own. However, it is a too waste topic to peruse. I think the nuns themselves speak about it quite clearly (including in the links I gave earlier). 

[Antigonos]

I think there may be a kind of "Catch 22" for the enclosed contemplative orders as their goal is to be "hidden" and they do not advertise themselves, and possibly are overlooked by many who might be drawn to them.  The internet is largely a product of the 21st century, and not all orders, even now, have good websites.  If an order does not want interaction with the outside world, how else does one find them?

[SicutColumba]

8 hours ago, Antigonos said:

I think there may be a kind of "Catch 22" for the enclosed contemplative orders as their goal is to be "hidden" and they do not advertise themselves, and possibly are overlooked by many who might be drawn to them.  The internet is largely a product of the 21st century, and not all orders, even now, have good websites.  If an order does not want interaction with the outside world, how else does one find them?

Don’t most parishes have some kind of monastery directory for the area? Maybe the diocese could take it upon itself to promote the community to interested women instead of the community itself having to do it. 

But evidently not enough advertising isn’t the crux of the problem. There were more vocations before the dawn of the internet. But since we’re here we might as well work with what we have. 

[JHFamily]

I'm kind of surprised that no one has pointed out that while some Carmels are closing, others have been forced to make new foundations. The one in Valparaiso is the one that would come most readily to mind.  Since 2009, they have made foundations in Elysburg, Philadelphia, Post Falls, and Australia (they had sisters from Australia). Elysburg has since made a foundation in Fairfield, and all six of the Carmels are still thriving and attracting young women. They are careful to have a mix of ages, which have left a wide range of ages in Valparaiso and Elysburg.

The story of Philadelphia is one that I hope to see reiterated many times.  They were down to three members and asked Elysburg to "refound" their Carmel, which they did with the help of some sisters from Valparaiso.  Now, they are a healthy community again. 

Don't ask me with I think of Cor Orans. It wouldn't be pretty...

[Graciela]

I wonder whether the fact that a number of monasteries with low numbers are closing  underlines that there was an actual problem that needed to be addressed and which Cor Orans was an attempt to solve.  There have been mergers: New Caney TX Carmel closed and the nuns joined the San Antonio Carmel; or the Valley Center, Kansas monastery closed and the nuns moved to join Brooklyn Carmel.   

JHFamily is circumspect in not commenting on Cor Orans. But I am going to be bold and say that even though I think there was legit reason for concern about some older monasteries with very few aged nuns, I am dubious its application.

For example, the Adoration sisters in Belfast had three or four women in first vows plus at least one novice- enough to re-establish adequate numbers- and yet the Vatican would not let them move to final vows because the community was too small. Basically means that that community will be gone, and there was no place for the women in formation to go except return to lay life.  I thought it was sad and really unjust to those women, especially those who had made first vows.

Also, I find it strange that contemplative women must have  a minimum 9 years of formation before final vows but contemplative men  (like Trappists, Benedictines) only need a minimum of 4.5 years.   

 

[Anastasia]

6 hours ago, JHFamily said:

I'm kind of surprised that no one has pointed out that while some Carmels are closing, others have been forced to make new foundations.

I did not know about some Carmels being forced to make new foundations. 

1 hour ago, Graciela said:

For example, the Adoration sisters in Belfast had three or four women in first vows plus at least one novice- enough to re-establish adequate numbers- and yet the Vatican would not let them move to final vows because the community was too small. Basically means that that community will be gone, and there was no place for the women in formation to go except return to lay life.

This is quite revealing. For all the history of the Church monasteries have grown exactly like this: someone went in to the desert, others joined. Any community would start from one or two persons. It means we are seeing the suppression of a natural, organic process.

And, being combined with the facts of forcing other Carmels to make foundations to me it looks like the whole issue is very much about control: to suppress what is already there and to establish from the scratch. The monasteries (both in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches) always have been independent and that was necessary for their way of a life. One needs to be inside that life (one way or another) to really "get it". 

Some nuns whose statements I have read say plainly it is about a centralized control. Many of the do not like the idea of federation as well and they explain why. 

2 hours ago, Graciela said:

Also, I find it strange that contemplative women must have  a minimum 9 years of formation before final vows but contemplative men  (like Trappists, Benedictines) only need a minimum of 4.5 years.   

Yes, the nuns whose opinions I know were very stunned with that; in fact the German nun (see the link in my first message) was very articulate about that. I heard from some friar a couple of years ago though that the male contemplatives will have the same number or the years... yet it appears not to be a case yet (?)

[Anastasia]

I thought to expand, not so much on Cor Orans (because the nuns spoke about it better than I can) but on how the monasteries happened. Probably all is said in the expression “monasteries happened”. Take Carmel for example, the first hermits lived on the mount Carmel, then they asked Jerusalem Patriarch Albert to write for them their rule. The Carmelite Rule is truly remarkable: it is very short (about two pages), very simple but very deep as well. If you read it you will see that the Carmelite Rule is the exact opposite of any bureaucracy or autocracy. St Albert simply outlined the way of a life of the hermits as they already did live plus added some Scripture-rooted considerations. It is very broad, as if someone outlined a path in general, leaving the details to those who travel. It is truly a great Rule and I would advice any Christian to read it.

And then later Carmelites came to Europe the relaxed too much hence St Teresa and St John did the reform returning to that very simple Rule. As far as I recall ‘The Foundations’ of St Teresa of Avila, all Carmel’s enjoyed autonomy. I cannot imagine St Teresa putting them into “a federation” ordered from above precisely because any change or any initiative, to be productive for contemplatives must come from the contemplatives themselves! St Teresa did her reform not out of blue but because she herself, being a contemplative, was ordered to do so for Christ. She had only one consideration: to put her nuns in the conditions the most productive for a prayer.

To give an analogy: I am an iconographer. If a non-iconographer approaches me and suggests that I, instead of my normal spiritual practice have been prescribed to all iconographers for centuries, “orders” me to drop it and do something “modern” I would disregard that because obviously it is nonsense which is coming from the lack of knowledge. If I follow his “order” I will lose the ability to paint properly. This is how I see the problem when non-contemplatives, non-monastics order something to contemplatives and monastics.

I read that some Cardinal was lecturing Carmelite nuns re: 'Cor Orans' saying that their ways were "outdated". My question is, if the sole purpose of a Carmelite is the union with Christ and Christ is eternal how then the ways of Carmel which lead to that eternal purpose can be "outdated"? Clearly that Cardinal just "does not get it".

Here is the Carmelite Rule

Edited December 1, 2020 by Anastasia

[cruciatacara]

53 minutes ago, Anastasia said:

I thought to expand, not so much on Cor Orans (because the nuns spoke about it better than I can) but on how the monasteries happened. Probably all is said in the expression “monasteries happened”. Take Carmel for example, the first hermits lived on the mount Carmel, then they asked Jerusalem Patriarch Albert to write for them their rule. The Carmelite Rule is truly remarkable: it is very short (about two pages), very simple but very deep as well. If you read it you will see that the Carmelite Rule is the exact opposite of any bureaucracy or autocracy. St Albert simply outlined the way of a life of the hermits as they already did live plus added some Scripture-rooted considerations. It is very broad, as if someone outlined a path in general, leaving the details to those who travel. It is truly a great Rule and I would advice any Christian to read it.

And then later Carmelites came to Europe the relaxed too much hence St Teresa and St John did the reform returning to that very simple Rule. As far as I recall ‘The Foundations’ of St Teresa of Avila, all Carmel’s enjoyed autonomy. I cannot imagine St Teresa putting them into “a federation” ordered from above precisely because any change or any initiative, to be productive for contemplatives must come from the contemplatives themselves! St Teresa did her reform not out of blue but because she herself, being a contemplative, was ordered to do so for Christ. She had only one consideration: to put her nuns in the conditions the most productive for a prayer.

To give an analogy: I am an iconographer. If a non-iconographer approaches me and suggests that I, instead of my normal spiritual practice have been prescribed to all iconographers for centuries, “orders” me to drop it and do something “modern” I would disregard that because obviously it is nonsense which is coming from the lack of knowledge. If I follow his “order” I will lose the ability to paint properly. This is how I see the problem when non-contemplatives, non-monastics order something to contemplatives and monastics.

I read that some Cardinal was lecturing Carmelite nuns re: 'Cor Orans' saying that their ways were "outdated". My question is, if the sole purpose of a Carmelite is the union with Christ and Christ is eternal how then the ways of Carmel which lead to that eternal purpose can be "outdated"? Clearly that Cardinal just "does not get it".

Here is the Carmelite Rule

 

It's not that I think you are wrong in what you say, but I think your comments lack the fullness of context. The Carmelite Rule is not outdated but many of the cultural traditions practised by some monasteries are very outdated. The Rule is particularly vague about how to actually achieve a lot of the things that it states, so that is left up to each community to carry out as they see fit. Over the 400+ years since St Teresa's reformation, some practices just don't make sense today, or they are inconsistent with other practices that have been allowed to change. Case in point, my friend (who has lived in several Carmelite communities) told me that at one place they had to carry the large floor rugs outside and 6 nuns would hold the heavy carpet upside down and shake it to clean it. Most of the nuns were middle aged to elderly and this was a heavy strain on them, so she asked why they didn't just use a vacuum cleaner and was told that qa vacuum was 'not the Carmelite way'. And yet at another equally traditional Carmelite community, they would use a vacuum cleaner and explained its use as being no different than using electric lights or fax machines etc. because after all, St Teresa was practical and would have used these if they had been around in her day. Same Order, different communities.

I think perhaps some of the communities over the years failed to understand that not everything St Teresa did in her day is necessary today in order to come closer to Jesus. Beating rugs by hand is just one small example. My friend told me that it always amazed her that one of the most important sentences in the Carmelite Rule is  to remember that 'common sense is the guide to the virtues' when she saw very little actual common sense being applied in many of the communities. That being said, she told me she always felt that she was a 'Carmelite in her heart' but that simply meant to her that contemplation was where she found Jesus. 

A little correction now and again is obviously not a bad thing. That's why St Teresa had to reform the O Carms after all. Nothing on earth is perfect or doesn't need correction at some time or another.

 

And just to add a little support for the Federations and other associations, I think total isolation is what leads to lack of common sense, not being able to see other communities doing something that is working perfectly well for them. Associations allows the communities to share ideas and to take stock of their own practices, to re-evaluate things. I think St Teresa would have really liked the Federations. After all, she was constantly traveling to the different communities to make sure they were all on track. She isn't around today, but associations can help the communities to help each other.

[Anastasia]

Your example with a vacuum cleaner is good (and again I have the analogy - I occasionally use the synthetic varnish for my icon when I judge it works better than " a natural") yet note that it was another Carmelite nun who used a vacuum cleaner, not some Cardinal.

35 minutes ago, cruciatacara said:

The Carmelite Rule is not outdated but many of the cultural traditions practised by some monasteries are very outdated.

Perhaps they are  "outdated" but as long as they derive some spiritual good from their "outdated" traditions those traditions work. If a nun derives some good from cleaning not with a vacuum cleaner but with a more primitive device - why not? My point is that only the nuns themselves can decide what is truly outdated and what is not.

Again, from own example: I was told by some "modernists" that I waste my time grinding the pigments and making my own paints. Those people thought I was mindlessly sticking to the tradition and were oblivious to the fact that gridding my own pigment allowed me to control the appearance of crystals in the layer of paint (that in turn causes the play of light impossible to achieve using ready made paints). At the same time, non-iconographers "traditionalists" would tell me off for the usage of galvanized steel as a board (instead of traditional wood) but they did not understand that I did it because the icon would be in damp conditions so the traditional board would warp.

Again, only I who have knowledge of why I do this (and knowing also the fruits my practice brings) can decide what to do. Same withy cloistered nuns.

Spiritual practice is a living thing. It changes very slowly and naturally. It is very easy to kill it by the order "above".

35 minutes ago, cruciatacara said:

I think St Teresa would have really liked the Federations. After all, she was constantly traveling to the different communities to make sure they were all on track. She isn't around today, but associations can help the communities to help each other.

Again, the same point: if there was a need in Federations Carmelites would come up with that idea themselves. Please do not forget that St Teresa, the reformer of Carmelites was one of them and her reforms were based on the return to the initial practice inspired by Our Lord Himself. Other reformers of the Order were also Carmelites. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Anastasia

[Anastasia]

Besides, I think it would not cause a harm if a cardinal said "your practices of cleaning are outdated, get vacuum cleaners!" But the problem is that 'Cor Orans' addressed not cleaning but far deeper things, the very basis of the monastic life.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Anastasia said:

It is truly a great Rule and I would advice any Christian to read it.

   (i.e. Rule of St Albert) 

39 minutes ago, Anastasia said:

Spiritual practice is a living thing. It changes very slowly and naturally

 

 

Quote

Rule of St Albert: "Common sense is the guide of the virtues" (first quoted by Anastasia)

 It is important, I think, because no religious rule is an end in itself.  The Rule serves a higher purpose.

[cruciatacara]

3 hours ago, Anastasia said:

Your example with a vacuum cleaner is good (and again I have the analogy - I occasionally use the synthetic varnish for my icon when I judge it works better than " a natural") yet note that it was another Carmelite nun who used a vacuum cleaner, not some Cardinal.

Perhaps they are  "outdated" but as long as they derive some spiritual good from their "outdated" traditions those traditions work. If a nun derives some good from cleaning not with a vacuum cleaner but with a more primitive device - why not? My point is that only the nuns themselves can decide what is truly outdated and what is not.

Again, from own example: I was told by some "modernists" that I waste my time grinding the pigments and making my own paints. Those people thought I was mindlessly sticking to the tradition and were oblivious to the fact that gridding my own pigment allowed me to control the appearance of crystals in the layer of paint (that in turn causes the play of light impossible to achieve using ready made paints). At the same time, non-iconographers "traditionalists" would tell me off for the usage of galvanized steel as a board (instead of traditional wood) but they did not understand that I did it because the icon would be in damp conditions so the traditional board would warp.

Again, only I who have knowledge of why I do this (and knowing also the fruits my practice brings) can decide what to do. Same withy cloistered nuns.

Spiritual practice is a living thing. It changes very slowly and naturally. It is very easy to kill it by the order "above".

Again, the same point: if there was a need in Federations Carmelites would come up with that idea themselves. Please do not forget that St Teresa, the reformer of Carmelites was one of them and her reforms were based on the return to the initial practice inspired by Our Lord Himself. Other reformers of the Order were also Carmelites. 

Even St Teresa put herself under obedience to a priest (her spiritual director), and if her Cardinal or the Pope had given her a directive, she would probably at least have given it a try first rather than arrogantly assume she knew the right way to do everything.

What I tried to say is that the nuns don't always make the decisions for themselves anyway - there is a hierarchy within the community and if the Prioress had this idea that 'the Carmelite way' is one thing while a Prioress in another community thinks it is another, then sharing this kind of info could be helpful to each other. Many of the communities are very happy about associations, even without a directive from 'above'. And some of them would be the first to admit that they don't have all the answers.

Sometimes someone from 'outside' a community might be in a better position to see things before they become a problem. Too much control within the monastery can lead to cult-like institutions. The yearly Visitations can't always pick up problems either because nuns are 'afraid' to speak up in case their words get back to the Prioress. I have heard all of these things from someone who was a nun, but I can't speak from personal experience, as a male and non-religious, so you could discount what I say, but I trust the things I was told. So to me, nothing wrong with a little oversight. It might not be applicable for your particular occupation, but in a community situation, I can see how valuable it could be.

[Anastasia]

St Teresa indeed put her personal spiritual life under the obedience of her confessors; it is a necessary condition for a good spiritual life. In fact one of her confessors, St John of the Cross, criticized her for too much obedience she had for her latest confessor (who was quite young) who was also a Carmelite. I did not say St Teresa was not obedient to those she chose to guide her. Note though that she chose them; she was looking for the learnt and/or spiritually very experienced people (like St Peter of Alkantara). 

She also had superiors of the same Order so of course she listened to them – she had to. I did not say she did not (although one may argue she was disobedient to her first prioress when the Lord directed her to establish her first reformed monastery).

You seem to misinterpret the point I have been making as clearly as I could: that problem is with the new rules which significantly change the life of monastics when they come from those who do not know their life from inside (who are not monastics (contemplatives)).

I do not recall in the history of the Carmelite Order when the rule was given to them from outside. When there were reforms many times in the history the Carmelite reformers would write the rules/constitutions and get the approval of the Pope. I do not recall the Pope suddenly doing that for them. St Teresa would ask various people including Spanish King to assist her in her reform.

44 minutes ago, cruciatacara said:

The yearly Visitations can't always pick up problems either because nuns are 'afraid' to speak up in case their words get back to the Prioress. I have heard all of these things from someone who was a nun, but I can't speak from personal experience, as a male and non-religious, so you could discount what I say, but I trust the things I was told. So to me, nothing wrong with a little oversight.

I am not going to discount what you said; I also know about those problems in some cloisters so they have to be addressed in some way - and better if they are addressed by those who are contemplatives themselves expanding already existent rules. The better overseeing for instance could be done within the Order. I would like to point out though that those problems of too much isolation etc. in some places cannot explain other major changes Cor Orans mandates, like the changed of the time of formation and the minimum number of professed nuns etc. from which this thread began. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Anastasia