Fratelli Tutti- I interview Pedro Gabriel of WherePeterIs.com in response to recent criticism of the Encyclical

[HumilityAndPatience]

Hi Phatmass family,

I was lucky to hold an interview with Pedro Gabriel of WherePeterIs.com on Fratelli Tutti. If you are unfamiliar with the work of WherePeterIs, here is their about page. They are one of the only collectives of Catholics who are calling out Papal critics (in defence of Pope Francis) responsibly and reasonably. I would highly recommend considering their work- if only to provide another viewpoint, particularly if you consider yourself a traditionally minded Catholic (as I do).

Anyway, I would welcome any comments on the interview I have linked below- criticism welcomed!

Thanks and glory to God!

 

 

[Guest]

I haven't finished the video yet, but thank you very much for posting it.

[HumilityAndPatience]

4 hours ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I haven't finished the video yet, but thank you very much for posting it.

Thanks very much for your message Barbara- any feedback is most welcome 

[Lilllabettt]

1 hour ago, HumilityAndPatience said:

Thanks very much for your message Barbara- any feedback is most welcome 

I am an ordinary wife and mother, I work 6 days a week at 2 different jobs, and I do not have time to listen to a 90 minute interview trying to explain what Pope Francis has said or written.

I must say the website (where Peter is) was very helpful to me in the past as I was, in the past, troubled in conscience by some things the Pope said and the website was my resource for soothing this.

However, I came to the conclusion some time ago that there is no need to try to understand, as PF himself does not set this as a priority or interest of his. As you can see again in this encyclical which seems to not have been professionally edited (did they publish a draft on accident?) and which includes the usual impenetrable footnote. 

When PF is dead or resigned, there may come a Pope who prioritizes the teaching aspect, and then they may clarify which of the many interpretations of this or that saying of PFs is the correct one. 

But PF himself does not particularly care if we understand him; is that not like a line from the song of st Francis?  in fact I am convinced the lack of understanding is his point. In which case, your laborious attempts to clarify are at cross purposes with the Popes own!

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Lilllabettt

[Anastasia]

12 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

But PF himself does not particularly care if we understand him

Sometimes a mess in words reflects a mess in thoughts. Sometimes it is a lack of a respect for an audience. Sometimes “whoever” deliberately creates fog because it suits them.

Whatever it is, it is usually a waste of a time to listen to the thirds parties whose role is “to explain” some figure of authority who causes a confusion, distress and so on. There is no reason to deal with the third party because:

1)      “the explanation” is an interpretation of an “explainer” so then a listener has to deal with two agendas, of “whoever” and of an explainer and that confuses a matter even further;

2)      the explainer’s “explanation” has no credibility because he does not have an official certificate signed by “whoever” that say “his words are my words”;

3)      there is absolutely nothing that can prevent “whoever” to speak directly and clearly if he wishes.

(The advice not to deal with the third party is commonly given to a member of a dysfunctional family who began seeing problems and wishes to remain sane and functional. It is very effective because it destroys the very tool that is used to keep a person in blur.)

[Guest]

I haven't got around to watching all the video, @HumilityAndPatience, but I will eventually.  

22 hours ago, HumilityAndPatience said:

They are one of the only collectives of Catholics who are calling out Papal critics (in defence of Pope Francis) responsibly and reasonably.

 

 

Parable of The Good Shepherd: "What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it?

And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, 'Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep."  (Luke Chapter 15)

We are all indeed brothers and sisters.

[HumilityAndPatience]

16 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

But PF himself does not particularly care if we understand him; is that not like a line from the song of st Francis?  in fact I am convinced the lack of understanding is his point.

St Paul's milk and meat is a more appropriate way of understanding St.Francis' influence/this point. Thanks for your comments @Lilllabettt

3 hours ago, Anastasia said:

(The advice not to deal with the third party is commonly given to a member of a dysfunctional family who began seeing problems and wishes to remain sane and functional. It is very effective because it destroys the very tool that is used to keep a person in blur.)

Thanks for the comment @Anastasia. Your views (which are similar to other posts you have contributed) seem to be a convoluted way of saying "there's no point in considering commentary on certain matters where I (and many others) perceive that ambiguity might exist. There is no hope of reconciling".

Is this correct?

[Anastasia]

35 minutes ago, HumilityAndPatience said:

Is this correct

Of course not.

[HumilityAndPatience]

20 minutes ago, Anastasia said:

Of course not.

In attempting to summarise your thesis- what is the main point I am missing in that case? 

[Anastasia]

1 hour ago, HumilityAndPatience said:

In attempting to summarise your thesis- what is the main point I am missing in that case? 

I am afraid your "summary" or "explanation" missed the entire message. It is a good example of what I wrote about.

[Lilllabettt]

13 hours ago, Anastasia said:

3)      there is absolutely nothing that can prevent “whoever” to speak directly and clearly if he wishes.

 

I will give you an example that has had a huge impact on my life. In 2008, an instruction came out called "Dignitas Personae". This document commented on a number of biomedical ethics questions, one of which was embryo adoption.

The instruction raises a number of ethical issus with embryo adoption; some very educated people read it and came to the conclusion that it set down Church teaching as being against the practice. This was my initial reading of it, too. But others said: no, it does no such thing, embryo adoption is still allowed. 

So to settle the controversy, a letter was written and the official interpretation was requested.  And in short order it was provided: this document did not intend to outright oppose embryo adoption but simply to raise issues around it. Indeed at the highest level the decision was made not to come down either for or against it.

The result of this clarification is that I adopted an embryonic baby whose mother had died.

The baby kicking within my belly will be born and baptized thanks in large part to those in charge at the time of Dignitas Personae. Because they bothered - when people were confused by what they wrote - to make the effort to make their true meaning understood. They made the effort because they wished to be understood.  Their goal was to teach, and helping people learn and understand correctly is the core of what teaching is.

I thank God from my heart everyday that Dignitas Personae was not written under PF. My poor baby would be dead or lie frozen fir centuries in the clutches of an industry which views him/her as a piece of property. 

So, I take it very personally.  There are serious life altering  consequences when you do not have a good teacher who cares if students learn.

8 hours ago, HumilityAndPatience said:

In attempting to summarise your thesis- what is the main point I am missing in that case? 

The main point is that your efforts to divine the meaning of these ambiguities are an absurdity.  For all the study and discussion you do, you do not know better than any commenter what PF means.  I mean, perhaps you do have the better part of the argument.  But, in the end it's "like, your opinion, man." Certainly holier and better educated men may look over the same evidence and disagree? You are a 3rd party with your own biases and fiddlers, you cannot objectively penetrate the mind of another to know which side of the ambiguity they intend.

It is like with sola scriptura. Who can know the true meaning of the Bible's authors and the divine intent of their inspiration? Wise and holy men read the same words and come to radically different conclusions. Salvation is at stake, how are we to know the true meaning of what is written? Well, Jesus set up the Church to protect the truth of the Gospel and give us the true meaning of the words when confusion pops up. Thank goodness because otherwise we are all on our own.

Well with PFs teaching, we are on our own. Your efforts to explain are interesting from a hobby perspective.  But for someone with the deadly serious goal of understanding and following the magisterium of PF, they are not particularly useful.

I do have faith that eventually the Church will clarify the ambiguities, but unlikely during PFs time. 

 

[HumilityAndPatience]

5 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

I will give you an example that has had a huge impact on my life. In 2008, an instruction came out called "Dignitas Personae".

Thanks for sharing @Lilllabettt- this touched me. Congratulations on your children. I too know of the difficulty in starting a family. Praise and glory to God for He is indeed good. 

 

6 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

There are serious life altering  consequences when you do not have a good teacher who cares if students learn.

I must ask however- can you see how some might actually hold the opinion that PF is indeed teaching many people things which have been forgotten with the weight of legalism, for example. Indeed, some take it that he is unburdening the Church of her ecclesiastical baggage. 

 

11 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

The main point is that your efforts to divine the meaning of these ambiguities are an absurdity.  For all the study and discussion you do, you do not know better than any commenter what PF means. 

I suppose, I am just trying to do my small part.

12 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Well with PFs teaching, we are on our own. Your efforts to explain are interesting from a hobby perspective.  But for someone with the deadly serious goal of understanding and following the magisterium of PF, they are not particularly useful.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HumilityAndPatience said:

 PF is indeed teaching many people things which have been forgotten with the weight of legalism

Spot on!

[Guest]

All the law can ever do is tell us all that we are sinners.  One offends here - another offends there.  We are all, every one of us, in need of a saviour from the burden of the law.  It is an astounding testament to the Love and Mercy of God in The Incarnation.  Jesus leads us not to the law but to Himself.  The Law condemns us all, Jesus rescues us all through Faith/trust in Him, who is The Second Person of The Blessed Trinity.

Quote

 

"since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;

all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.............edit...31 Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law. "

(Romans Chapter 3 - the whole Chapter is well worth a read; http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PYR.HTM)

 

 

[Anastasia]

2 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

So to settle the controversy, a letter was written and the official interpretation was requested.  And in short order it was provided: this document did not intend to outright oppose embryo adoption but simply to raise issues around it. Indeed at the highest level the decision was made not to come down either for or against it.

You know what stuck me in your story you told? – How very normal it is. Seriously, while reading I felt a huge relief, a comfort, like I suddenly was transported from the mad world into the normal, well-ordered world with normal human relationships as they are designed by God. The people asked for clarifications and they were given and brought a good fruit. Those who were responsible for ‘Dignitas Personae’ affirmed their message about human dignity not just with their words but also with the manner they have dealt with those who asked for a clarification.

I wrote some days ago somewhere on the forum that the Church is “made” with human and divine, human psychology and theology and that a warped psyche inevitably warps theology. This is what is happening currently in the Church I believe. 

2 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

I thank God from my heart everyday that Dignitas Personae was not written under PF. My poor baby would be dead or lie frozen fir centuries in the clutches of an industry which views him/her as a piece of property. 

I very glad for your baby. And for you.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Anastasia