Mary As Part Of The Trinity

[blovedwolfofgod]

I am having a big debate on my xanga website, and I need some help. I dont know anything about this and I know it has to be false, but I dont know how to articulate it.

[quote]One thing--Your "tradition" teaches Mary, as I've been told, to be crowned as "queen of heaven."  You give us biblical Scripture that says that, and I will leave it be.  I've visited Poland, and I know that the Catholics there hold Mary to be part of the Divine Trinity.  For that, I'd like to see Scripture on it.[/quote]

and
[quote]I appreciate the fact that the Bible was put together, but I refuse to succumb to put my faith in Catholicism due to it's Scriptural twistings and falsely acclaimed divinity of Mary.[/quote]

any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[phatcatholic]

if any catholic holds mary to be a part of the trinity, that person is not an orthodox catholic. the catholic church does NOT make mary a member of the trinity. her queenship in heaven does not make her a member of the trinity either. mary is the queen of heaven only b/c she is the mother of the King, Jesus Christ. she is the queen of heaven by logical extension. the OT speaks often of the influence of the "queen mother." she sits at the right of the king and intercedes to the king on behalf of the members of the kingdom.

all the scripture you need can be found [url="http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-III"][b]here[/b][/url]

also, see the entry on [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=5421"][b]Mary[/b][/url] in the [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showforum=21"][b]reference section[/b][/url].

give me a link to ur xanga site and i'll see if i can post some quick messages

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[ThyWillBeDone]

nevermind phatcatholic got to it first and was much better
Chris

Edited July 6, 2004 by ThyWillBeDone

[Guest JeffCR07]

It should also be pointed out that there is a large difference between being "divinized" and being one of the Persons of the Trinity. Catholics believe that "salvation" is not merely the remission of sins, but perfect communion with God. This perfect communion with God results in our partaking in the Divine Nature. This does not mean that we become Gods in and of ourselves: we retain our humanity. However, we become participants in the Divine Love that is manifest in the Trinity. In Eastern Tradition this process is known as the "Final Theosis," and the idea is (i believe infallibly) stated in the Catechism.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 6 2004, 10:34 AM'] It should also be pointed out that there is a large difference between being "divinized" and being one of the Persons of the Trinity. Catholics believe that "salvation" is not merely the remission of sins, but perfect communion with God. This perfect communion with God results in our partaking in the Divine Nature. This does not mean that we become Gods in and of ourselves: we retain our humanity. However, we become participants in the Divine Love that is manifest in the Trinity. In Eastern Tradition this process is known as the "Final Theosis," and the idea is (i believe infallibly) stated in the Catechism.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff [/quote]
bloved,

although jeff is indeed correct, if you are a beginning apologist then you may not want to present this argument. if you are not familiar w/ the "final theosis" and able to elaborate on the naunces of this doctrine, then ur opponent may in fact think that catholics believe in "many gods." just take ur time bro and work w/ what u are able.

just some constructive criticism b/c i want u to do well

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

jeff,

do u have the scripture verses that back up this doctrine of sharing in the divinity of God? i myself wouldn't feel comfortable presenting this argument unless i had a list of verses at my disposal.

thanks,
phatcatholic

[Guest JeffCR07]

Hey phat. I know I do somewhere, but I'm not at home. However, off the top of my head, there is the verse (or it might be from one of the early church fathers) "God became man, than man might become God"

also bloved, I definately agree with Phat. The "final theosis" theology is definately a complex one and it would absolutely be enough (and correct) to say that no catholic believes that Mary is a "fourth" Person of the Trinity. In fact, to say so is distinctly heretical.

[Guest JeffCR07]

When I get home I will give you definative sources

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jul 6 2004, 12:50 PM'] jeff,

do u have the scripture verses that back up this doctrine of sharing in the divinity of God? i myself wouldn't feel comfortable presenting this argument unless i had a list of verses at my disposal.

thanks,
phatcatholic [/quote]
phat, I know that I have stuff on divinization. I'll get it up here soon for you, unless Jeff beats me to it.

[BurkeFan]

Divinization / Deification:
2 Peter 1:3-4, John 15:4-11, John 17:23, 1 Cor 13:9-13

(2Peter) - This should be obvious
3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness are given us through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue.
4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

(John 15) - Living interiorally with the Trinity, abiding in Christ
4 Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth.
7 If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.
8 In this is my Father glorified: that you bring forth very much fruit and become my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love.
10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love: as I also have kept my Father's commandments and do abide in his love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled.

(John 17) - Definition of eternal life
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(1Cor) - You shall know God the way God knows you.
9 For we know in part: and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.
12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner: but then face to face. Now I know in part: but then I shall know even as I am known.
13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, you got to them [i]way[/i] before I got home.

Anyways phat, the only quote I would tack on would be one from one of the early Church Fathers, St. Athanasius. I think it is important to note that the theology of final theosis is backed not only scripturally but also in Tradition.

It is the quote that I poorly paraphrased before, and is one of his more famous:

"God became man so that man might become divine" - St. Athanasius

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

P.S. - gotta give props to Burke!

[BurkeFan]

Thanks Jeff. Also, there's alot about Deification in Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy. There's also a prayer of Leo the Great, though, I'm not sure what it is exactly at the moment.

Athanasius rocks!

[conservativecatholic]

blovedwolfofgod: Like you, I am bombarded with accusations and questions regarding Mary on a daily basis. I would like to know if this person on your website visited Poland on planet Earth or planet "X" because the Poland I know is religiously educated very well and would never even ponder Mary being a part of the Holy Trinity. Clearly this guy did not visit the Poland I know.

[phatcatholic]

jeff.........do u have any other scripture verses to add? i would like as many as possible

conservativecatholic...........welcome to phatmass! make sure you check out the reference section in this board. i have an entry there on mary that should be extremely helpful.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Guest JeffCR07]

The following is not scripture, but from the catechism. I have PM'd Apotheoun and asked him to provide some info as well. We's way smarter than me, and it has more of a focus in the Eastern Rites, so he would be in his element. However, here is something:

[quote]460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."[/quote]

[quote]2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."[/quote]

[quote]1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man's faculties for participation in the divine nature: for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.[/quote]

[quote]1726 The Beatitudes teach us the final end to which God calls us: the Kingdom, the vision of God, participation in the divine nature, eternal life, filiation, rest in God.[/quote]

[quote]259 Being a work at once common and personal, the whole divine economy makes known both what is proper to the divine persons, and their one divine nature. Hence the whole Christian life is a communion with each of the divine persons, without in any way separating them. Everyone who glorifies the Father does so through the Son in the Holy Spirit; everyone who follows Christ does so because the Father draws him and the Spirit moves him.[/quote]

[quote]1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[/quote]


I hope these quotes help out a bit. It should be noted again that we do not become "gods" in a seperate sense, but rather, that God shares His divinity with us in the form of Grace that places us in perfect communion and unity with Him. We remain human, and our relationship with God is still that of Creator to Creation, but, out of love, he allows us to partake in [i]his[/i] divinity. On a deeper theological level, this means that our "divinization" exists exclusively as a result of the Father, and through no power or doing of our own. We are perfected because He has perfected us. It is precisely because it is He who who causes our perfection that He remains above us. Thus, we do not become "equal" to him, or "part" of the Trinity, as the Father, Son, and Spirit are equal and One. Rather, we, who are not equal, are made perfect dispite our inequality on account of his Absolute Perfection.

I think I've got that right, if not, hopefully Apotheoun will set me straight.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff