St Margaret of Cortona and virginity

[adoro.te.devote]

Even though this doesn't directly link to vocations, it's on the topic of virginity which would relate to a vocation forum in some way  

I was just trying to understand something I read in the life of a Saint and I don't think I have enough theological knowledge. I'm wondering if perhaps anyone does, or has any thoughts (please only in line with Church teaching... I'm really trying to understand this correctly!)

St Margaret of Cortona lived unmarried with a man and they had a child. So obviously she was not a virgin. As we know, virginity cannot be recovered, though the purpose of it can be (St Thomas). She later had a powerful conversion and became a third order Franciscan and penitent. Jesus purified her and she became a Saint, and had the mystical marriage with Our Lord. 

Jesus told St Margaret that He will make of her an example of His mercy to sinners. On the feast of St Catherine of Alexandria, He told her after Communion that in Heaven, He would place her among the virgins, and reintegrate her into the purity of a virgin. St Margaret was greatly afraid of deception, in her humility, and asked if St Mary Magdalene is there too. Jesus told her yes, and that only St Catherine is greater than St Mary Magdalene among the virgins. 

In Catholic encyclopedia, it says that incomplete faults can still be repented of in a way where the person has a right to the aureole of virginity. But this is for incomplete faults. Given that virginity cannot be recovered, how can we understand what happened to these Saints? To clarify, I am not disagreeing with the revelation from Jesus to St Margaret. I think it's beautiful, and could give hope to many souls, as is also described in this book: https://archive.org/stream/thelifeofsaintma00giovuoft/thelifeofsaintma00giovuoft_djvu.txt

I would just like to check my understanding of the theology here. Could it be that some souls have a right to the aureole, and others do not have the right, not through much penance/sorrow for sin/purification, they could regain, not virginity, not a virginal purity? (any reward for this, such as being placed among the virgins, would be a special gift, of course, and not to be presumed upon. I dont' know what the case is with the aureole, in this situation). Jesus told Venerable Conchita of Mexico that He can supply His own virginity in union with souls, and this is in proportion to His union with souls. 

So these are all private revelations... how do we understand them with Catholic doctrine? That's my question, but I also just wanted to share these revelations, as possible encouragement to anyone who is seeking a vocation and struggling with memory of their past sins. St Margaret of Cortona is just the perfect Saint to give hope, and we are all sinners who need God's mercy :) 

[Lilllabettt]

4 hours ago, adoro.te.devote said:

Even though this doesn't directly link to vocations, it's on the topic of virginity which would relate to a vocation forum in some way  

I was just trying to understand something I read in the life of a Saint and I don't think I have enough theological knowledge. I'm wondering if perhaps anyone does, or has any thoughts (please only in line with Church teaching... I'm really trying to understand this correctly!)

St Margaret of Cortona lived unmarried with a man and they had a child. So obviously she was not a virgin. As we know, virginity cannot be recovered, though the purpose of it can be (St Thomas). She later had a powerful conversion and became a third order Franciscan and penitent. Jesus purified her and she became a Saint, and had the mystical marriage with Our Lord. 

Jesus told St Margaret that He will make of her an example of His mercy to sinners. On the feast of St Catherine of Alexandria, He told her after Communion that in Heaven, He would place her among the virgins, and reintegrate her into the purity of a virgin. St Margaret was greatly afraid of deception, in her humility, and asked if St Mary Magdalene is there too. Jesus told her yes, and that only St Catherine is greater than St Mary Magdalene among the virgins. 

In Catholic encyclopedia, it says that incomplete faults can still be repented of in a way where the person has a right to the aureole of virginity. But this is for incomplete faults. Given that virginity cannot be recovered, how can we understand what happened to these Saints? To clarify, I am not disagreeing with the revelation from Jesus to St Margaret. I think it's beautiful, and could give hope to many souls, as is also described in this book: https://archive.org/stream/thelifeofsaintma00giovuoft/thelifeofsaintma00giovuoft_djvu.txt

I would just like to check my understanding of the theology here. Could it be that some souls have a right to the aureole, and others do not have the right, not through much penance/sorrow for sin/purification, they could regain, not virginity, not a virginal purity? (any reward for this, such as being placed among the virgins, would be a special gift, of course, and not to be presumed upon. I dont' know what the case is with the aureole, in this situation). Jesus told Venerable Conchita of Mexico that He can supply His own virginity in union with souls, and this is in proportion to His union with souls. 

So these are all private revelations... how do we understand them with Catholic doctrine? That's my question, but I also just wanted to share these revelations, as possible encouragement to anyone who is seeking a vocation and struggling with memory of their past sins. St Margaret of Cortona is just the perfect Saint to give hope, and we are all sinners who need God's mercy

The Church doesn't have a lot of doctrine on virginity. So, watch out for that Catholic encyclopedia.  It's not the end all be all and it contains a lot of theological opinions that the uninitiated can interpret as doctrine or fact. 

I'll give you an example.  Aquinas says that the experience of any voluntary sexual pleasure whatsoever constitutes a loss of virginity.  This is idea has great traditional pedigree among the saints. I don't agree with it, though. The meaning of both virginity and sex is that they require interface with a person; Virginity and sex don't exist outside of relationship. Sex is union with a created person whereas virginity is being "known" by and in intimate union with,  exclusively, God.  One's virginity can't be lost to one's hand, in other words. 

Taking that thought further:

So, virginity is "lost" by sexual union with a created person. And Union is the very definition of sex, right? - if sex is not fully unitive, we consider it counterfeit and defective - a deformed act which deforms us. Instead of union and self gift, it is self involved and using of the other person.

Premarital sex, extra marital sex, gay sex, contraceptive sex all fall into this  "counterfeit" sex basket. 

That being said. There are many people who have only ever had premarital sex. Others have only ever had gay sex. Still others, even married people, have only ever had contraceptive sex. Well. Have they really had sex at all? Have they really had sexual union, giving all and holding nothing back, with another person? Or have they just been apeing real sex?

In this way, is it possible in some sense to speak of such persons as virgins?  If they have never experienced what we recognize as real, authentic sex, true union with a created person? 

This is all 100% speculative  ...  But, I guess it's one way Margaret of Cortona could be a virgin!

[chrysostom]

I don't know - while it is indeed a consolation to hear about saints who got up again after falling and failing hard, I'm not sure spiritual marriages of the saints and the topic of virginity are going to have much to do with one's vocation, to be perfectly honest.

The past, after confession, is neither here nor there - the present is the thing. The future will soon turn to present and then past before we know it, and life will happen in its own odd way much outside of our control. The good God sustains us each moment. No path we choose precludes the possibility of being washed clean, and no path is chosen for us.

Edited November 7, 2020 by chrysostom

[Anastasia]

What the Lord says to a soul in a mystical experience is primary intended for that very soul. I think it is unwise to take a very private conversing of another soul with God as a kind of basis for thinking about ranks, possibilities etc... I means about very detailed things like where is St Mary Magdalene compare to St Catherine of Alexandria and so on.

I would simply take that text an encouragement, in general. I believe God can purify a soul to a degree impossible to imagine, if she surrenders to God. St John of the Cross says that the soul in love with God is being slowly transformed into the likeness of God. I think it is all that is needed. He can do anything.

I also recalled that in the ancient Church married female converts were sometimes referred to as "virgins", for example St Felicity and St Perpetua, both married women.

[Guest]

Really interesting post by @Lilllabettt and thank you for posting your thoughts.

[GraceUk]

My thoughts are this. All this happened to a her a very  very long time ago. I am always dubious about Jesus speaking directly to people.     She was obviously sorry for her past life and was ready to make amends. So I dont see how what her experiences were has very much relevance on vocations today. 

Also I read an article a while ago saying the Vatican has stated that 'technical virginity' might not be necessary to be a consecrated virgin. Don't think I agree with that. Still it's not up to me!

[adoro.te.devote]

Thanks for the replies! I know not everyone agreed with this revelation being helpful to discerners today, but I hope it could be :) I linked a book where a Bishop said that it could be an encouragement to people particularly in the modern age. Maybe it could console a soul who is really suffering from past sins, it's ok if you disagree though. :) 

Some interesting thoughts have been shared. I see the logic, but personally I'm cautious of the idea that virginity is only lost if someone truly understands they are giving themselves to another. Often, people who have multiple partners and commit a lot of sexual sin, tend to have a lot of brokenness, perhaps from their past. This reasoning would mean that they are still virgins. I think that virginity is lost through willful and complete sexual pleasure, but I think if someone committed certain sins because of brokenness, Our Lord is very compassionate towards them, and perhaps He wants all the more to purify them? I read of an early Church Saint, St Thais.. she was a courtesan and then had a huge conversion and became a hermit/penitent. It seems like she might have received a similar grace as St Margaret of Cortona. I know that Jesus is drawn to misery and maybe the souls that feel most broken, are the ones He chooses to purify most deeply as an example of His Mercy :) I wouldn't be surprised.

This lead to an interesting discussion for sure. 

If someone has any more thoughts on the Church teaching relating to this, that would be great! I tend to think that maybe Jesus united St Margaret (and others) with His virginity, spiritually, and purified them through their penance. This is what He told to St Margaret: 

Quote

 

On the Feast of St. Catherine, Virgin and Martyr, Margaret heard Our Lord say to her:

"My daughter, one day I will place you among the Seraphs, among the virgins whose hearts are flaming with love for God."

"How can that be, Lord, after I have soiled myself with so many sins?"

"My daughter, your many penances have purified your soul from all the effects of sin to such a degree that your contrition and your sufferings will reintegrate you into the purity of a virgin!"

In another vision the Savior said to her:

"My daughter, you are a rose among flowers. You are pure. And for your love of chastity, I have placed you among the virgins."

 

God bless!

[gloriana35]

Various Franciscan saints are venerated as 'penitents' - Margaret was prominent in that category.

I am very cautious about private revelations, and agree with those who said that it has to do with a particular communication with an individual (this filtered through the individual's vision - Thomas Aquinas always said gifts come according to the manner of the recipient.)

Clearly, Margaret was not a virgin - but this could be a figurative way of expressing the purity of the repentant sinner, which 'spoke' to her in a special way. Heavens, Margery Kempe, a married lady and mother of 14, wanted to be given the garb of the consecrated virgin! I would say that, in far-off centuries, there was a certain idea of special strength in virgins. 

Everyone is a sinner in need of redemption - some have an exceptional desire for union with God and are considered to have heroic sanctity. Divine mercy and grace are what matter here, not virginity in itself. 

[Anastasia]

4 hours ago, adoro.te.devote said:

I know that Jesus is drawn to misery and maybe the souls that feel most broken, are the ones He chooses to purify most deeply as an example of His Mercy

I think a broken soul (abused, mistreated, sinful) has a huge capacity of gratitude because she knows hell on earth. If she manages to surrender to Christ and he begins delivering her from that psychological hell she praises the Lord. If she manages to develop an attachment to the Lord then she sticks to Him because she knows experientially that otherwise she will perish.

(by no means I am saying that there is anything good in abuse; the book titles like 'The Wisdom of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder' make me shiver, frankly)

Edited November 8, 2020 by Anastasia

[Guest]

Quote

 

Psalm 115 (reference can vary depending on biblical translation) "Not to us, O LORD, not to us but to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness. Why do the nations say, "Where is their God?" Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him."

Psalm 135 "Whatever the LORD desires  he does in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the depths

 

The Lord can and undoubtedly does do whatever pleases Him and we can see this in the writings of some the saints.  Such things in probably most instances are quite rare, or more correctly, insofar as we know such things are quite rare.  We are not bound to believe in what the saints may have said or written.    The sum total of what we must believe for both salvation and the absolute heights of holiness is contained in the Deposit of Faith i.e. Scripture and what The Church teaches or Tradition.  I do not think at all, however, that The Lord is bound by rules we might make for Him, and something of an oxymoron.

There are undoubtedly great saints in Heaven who have never been canonized.  The Lord brings to the altar of His Church (canonization) whomsoever He Will and for the good of the whole Church.  They are proposed to us as worthy of imitation and inspirational.  Obviously I would be unwise to desire to imitate the levitation of some saint, as example only.  But there would be qualities in his or her life worthy of imitation that a person might imitate.

Where physical virginity is concerned, of course The Lord could restore that virginity if lost;  however, His Church has instituted the vocation of consecrated virgin (Order of Virgins) and as an image of The Church as virginal bride and Jesus as The Bridegroom.  In order to enter the Order of Virgins, to date insofar as I know, The Church ordains that one has to be a physical virgin - and to my mind fair enough. In the various Orders in The Church there are certain requirements, which might vary from one institute to another.   The Church has the right to institute The Order of Virgins and mandate that  the person must be a physical virgin.  "Whatever you bind on earth, it shall be bound also in Heaven and whatsoever you loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in Heaven".

What exactly constitutes physical virginity?  I think that is being theologically debated while The Church has not made any official statement ... to my knowledge.

Quote

 

Catholic Catechism

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist. The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom." The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him. The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb. "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her." He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body.

This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."240 And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."241 They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."242

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by BarbaraTherese
Grammar and spelling

[adoro.te.devote]

Of course I don't know for sure about this, but the way I tend to understand the revelation to St Margaret of Cortona (I understand it's private revelation of course) - is that maybe Jesus united her so deeply with His own virginity, in union with Him, that she had again the purity of a virgin. What is material in virginity cannot be recovered according to St Thomas. So no one can get their own virginity back.. but perhaps an equivalent purity, through Our Lord's own virginity. This is totally hypothetical by the way. I'm thinking of this because of what He said to another mystic - Venerable Conchita of Mexico - Jesus spoke to her about this very idea. So I'm thinking it could have happened to some of the Saints :) of course, this doesn't mean such a soul could be a Consecrated Virgin in her vocation, where material virginity is necessary, but it could certainly perhaps reflect on her personal relationship with God :) 

I don't think St Margaret was just convincing herself of this, or had this understanding initially, because when she felt Jesus give her those words, she got really scared and confused, and didn't understand how it could even be possible. 

So this is just all hypothetical and perhaps in Heaven we would see what the case is and understand more about such things! :) meanwhile, I just thought maybe this story could give hope of purification to souls that regret their past very deeply. This was the idea of the Bishop quoted in the book on St Margaret that I included in the first post. 

Of course, in everything that i'm writing, my intention is to be in union with the Church's teaching, so I was careful not to go against any of the teachings :) and this is not my own idea I'm writing about, but something in the life of a Saint. I guess one day, we'll know :) 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, adoro.te.devote said:

this doesn't mean such a soul could be a Consecrated Virgin in her vocation, where material virginity is necessary, but it could certainly perhaps reflect on her personal relationship with God

5 hours ago, adoro.te.devote said:

because when she felt Jesus give her those words, she got really scared and confused, and didn't understand how it could even be possible. 

St Teresa of Avila had a similar experience.  For a long period of years was plagued by doubts constantly seeking re assurance.  It is recognised that the various mystical phenomena is very open to deception either by the devil or one's own imagination.  It has been said that the proof of the experience is in the wake or in the aftermath, in the result.

Quote

"It should be observed that perfect love of God consists not in those delights, tears and sentiments of devotion that we generally seek, but in a strong determination and keen desire to please God in all things, and to promote His glory." (St Teresa of Avila https://www.azquotes.com/author/19882-Teresa_of_Avila/tag/desire )

 

[Lilllabettt]

17 hours ago, adoro.te.devote said:

 So I'm thinking it could have happened to some of the Saints of course, this doesn't mean such a soul could be a Consecrated Virgin in her vocation, where material virginity is necessary, but it could certainly perhaps reflect on her personal relationship with God

So, I'm not sure what you have in mind by "material" virginity. When some theologians say, Our Lady remained a virgin, they mean physically her body did not show any changes caused by either sex or childbrith, i.e., Jesus was born like light through a windowpane. They identify virginity with a physical condition of the body. If you mean physical virginity this way, then I think that is not absolutely required for consecrated virginity.  My reason being, the OG virgins so to speak, those that have been celebrated for thousands of years as "virgin martyrs" by the Church, at least some of them were almost certainly not "physical virgins" at the time of their death.

trigger warning.... sexual assault

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The Romans had superstitions around killing virgins ... it was customary that prisoners were raped beforehand. St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas taught that rape victims remained virginal even if they bore a child as a result of the rape; and that in heaven they received 2 crowns, both that of virginity and one for enduring the outrage of being violated.

You probably already know this because you earlier referenced the teaching of St Thomas that volitional sexual pleasure constitutes loss of virginity. So you probably know about his related teachings.

But, I say this here because others may not know and it was a revelation to me when I first learned this.

 

[adoro.te.devote]

Lilllabettt, i meant how St Thomas says that absense of voluntary sexual pleasure is material to virginity, and the intent to live like that is what is formal in virginity... the formal part is necessary to make it a virtue. The formal part can also be recovered (by intending to live in perfect chastity in the future), but the material part can not be recovered. The physical sign of virginity in women is accidental to the virtue which is why rape victims can still be virgins..

Sorry everyone that sounds really technical.. im not a theologian, just paraphrasing the Angelic Doctor!

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3152.htm

Edited November 10, 2020 by adoro.te.devote