2020 U.S. Presidential Election

[rachael]

5 minutes ago, Jaime said:

Yikes is rachael's nickname for MIkolbe.  

And just generally my reaction whenever someone mentions Trump.

Edited November 7, 2020 by rachael
because i felt like it

[Jaime]

4 minutes ago, rachael said:

And just generally my reaction whenever someone mentions Trump.

Yikes

[rachael]

14 minutes ago, Jaime said:

Yikes

Yea, I know. I cringed when I typed it.

[Peace]

16 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Fair, although I find it kind of weird to apologize for stuff you personally haven't done. Maybe acknowledge is a better word.

Happens all the time for organizations I think. Like, if if some low-level employee of a company commits fraud, the CEO will get up there and apologize on behalf of the company.

16 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

Do you know why the democrats don't need to acknowledge their sordid history?

Well, they already get 90% of the black vote. They don't have to do much of anything.

Why do black people give them a free pass? I don't know the answer to that. I would guess that many aren't exactly in love with the Dems, but they absolutely despise the GOP, so they just let the Dems problems slide.

16 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

I have an idea about it: the southern strategy was a real thing, BUT I think it's a little too convenient to just say "that's when the party switched," like all racist democrats instantly became civil rights sympathizers. It strikes me as dishonest anyway.

Well if you look at the presidential maps starting from say 1960 I think you can see what happened. In 1960 the segregationist south was blue. In 1964 the Republican candidate Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights Act and turned the South red for the first time in many years. Most of the segregationists jumped on the Goldwater train, turning the South red.

Goldwater's movement essentially morphed into what has become the modern conservative movement in the USA, so I think in the minds of many black Americans a mental association developed between racism and the conservative movement.

[Ice_nine]

I know the South turned red when it was previously blue. I just don't happen to think that since racist republicans opportunistically exploited the racist southerners as a political ploy that the democrats stopped being racist. One could say maybe they went covert. Maybe they saw that appealing to the sensibilities of civil rights sympathizers was a convenient strategy in other parts of the country. Like how Nike might be able to endorse Kap even while using slave labor in foreign countries.

And segregation is low-key woke now. My point stands.

[Peace]

10 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I know the South turned red when it was previously blue. I just don't happen to think that since racist republicans opportunistically exploited the racist southerners as a political ploy that the democrats stopped being racist.

Totally agree. Yeah it's just the wolf and the fox when it comes to that.

[KnightofChrist]

I know people get tired of me saying it, but oh well, Democrats today are not any different now, worse as a matter of fact. They still believe there are groups of people that are nopersons, and those nonpersons, who are still disproportionately black, can be traded, sold, and mostly exterminated.

After the Civil War the Party should have been outlawed and its hierarchy hung for crimes against humanity, just like what was done to the Nazis. 

[PhuturePriest]

Does anyone have thoughts about Trump's brazen refusal to concede? I just don't know how this is going to play out in January. Trump's supporters are die-hard and will follow his lead. My parents, who are most definitely representative of the hardcore Trump base, have said that they will not under any circumstances acknowledge that Trump lost unless Trump himself does. What kind of impact will it have on the country if perhaps 1/3rd of its citizens do not acknowledge the legitimacy of the president? 

I'm also unsure of how to even talk about these issues with them. It seems the Trump base is so full of anger that they refuse to be reasoned with at this point. They are hell-bent on believing this is a rigged election orchestrated by the democrats, and no amount of pointing out the lack of evidence or making reasoned counterarguments (like if this truly was rigged why the democrats wouldn't orchestrate a landslide victory that also included the Senate) makes any difference.

A surprising result of this is that it has made me lose respect I didn't even know I had for Trump. I thought he would at the very least concede with some level of grace, but in retrospect I don't know why I thought that. This is all in keeping with everything else he has ever done.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8924935/Donald-Trump-plans-avoid-Joe-Bidens-inauguration-January.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/07/donald-trump-refuses-to-concede-defeat-as-recriminations-begin

I'm also getting quite frustrated with the amount of devout and well-intending Catholics who are posting about this being a matter of spiritual warfare. They seem to believe Trump is the Lord's Anointed and are saying the forces of darkness are trying to dethrone him and disrupt God's plan. One even posted this gem below on Facebook, to which I just couldn't even. I'm just not even sure how or whether to address this when people talk to me about it. Perhaps time simply needs to pass and the strong feelings being experienced now will die down?

[Lilllabettt]

24 minutes ago, PhuturePriest said:

Does anyone have thoughts about Trump's brazen refusal to concede? I just don't know how this is going to play out in January. Trump's supporters are die-hard and will follow his lead. My parents, who are most definitely representative of the hardcore Trump base, have said that they will not under any circumstances acknowledge that Trump lost unless Trump himself does. What kind of impact will it have on the country if perhaps 1/3rd of its citizens do not acknowledge the legitimacy of the president? 

I'm also unsure of how to even talk about these issues with them. It seems the Trump base is so full of anger that they refuse to be reasoned with at this point. They are hell-bent on believing this is a rigged election orchestrated by the democrats, and no amount of pointing out the lack of evidence or making reasoned counterarguments (like if this truly was rigged why the democrats wouldn't orchestrate a landslide victory that also included the Senate) makes any difference.

A surprising result of this is that it has made me lose respect I didn't even know I had for Trump. I thought he would at the very least concede with some level of grace, but in retrospect I don't know why I thought that. This is all in keeping with everything else he has ever done.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8924935/Donald-Trump-plans-avoid-Joe-Bidens-inauguration-January.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/07/donald-trump-refuses-to-concede-defeat-as-recriminations-begin

I'm also getting quite frustrated with the amount of devout and well-intending Catholics who are posting about this being a matter of spiritual warfare. They seem to believe Trump is the Lord's Anointed and are saying the forces of darkness are trying to dethrone him and disrupt God's plan. One even posted this gem below on Facebook, to which I just couldn't even. I'm just not even sure how or whether to address this when people talk to me about it. Perhaps time simply needs to pass and the strong feelings being experienced now will die down?

Trump saying the election is illegitimate is just his saving face. I do not think he particularly wants to be president another 4 years, but he does not like to lose face. Part of me wonders if he may resign in "righteous indignation" before the change over. 

Eventually the message will switch from "they're trying to steal the election" to "I did more than all other presidents in history, in only 4 years, with 1 hand tied behind my back because of all the people out to get me."  Just wait for it. 

The picture of Trump in the lion's den is a good summary of how "die hard" Trumpkins think of themselves.  They think of themselves as being surrounded. Not unjustifiably so - power and wealth are overwhelmingly concentrated on the left and the hostility is real as well.

I could tell you all kinds of things that are uttered by people in the upper echelons when they believe they are safe among their own kind. I will give you 2 examples. 

One time I was introduced to a person with status and power. It came up in our conversation that my brothers were in the army. This person paused, then said "well, they are officers. That's different." Different from being a total buffoon enlisted soldier, in other words. I hadn't told this person my brothers were officers, this person just assumed because of my elite resume, if any of my family were going to lower themselves to be in the military, they had to at least be officers. Needless to say I didn't tell this person my husband was an enlisted man. 

Another time, I was sitting on an admissions committee for an elite program. We were discussing the candidacy of a very senior officer in the military. He had in his file a letter from a 4 star general aclaiming him as the most intelligent man he'd ever served with. I read this letter aloud, and someone on the committee made a joke about how being the most intelligent man in the army isn't saying much. This got a good laugh. 

I could give you other examples. I could do religion and Catholicism in particular.  But I chose veterans because they are a group our elites make a big public show of appreciating and respecting.  The truth is in private they do not.

Although Trumpkins are poorer and less educated, they are not total morons. They can sense the disrespect.  That sense of being surrounded by ridicule is the endless well spring of their rage. They appreciate and respect Trump's need to save face; they do not consider his lies to be lies but him "bullsh****g." 

Anyway, this is the root of their identification with Trump - as someone who is also opposed and ridiculed by the great power reservoirs in America. 

[Aloysius]

Trump's rhetoric is downright dangerous and wrong, but I do not blame his suspicion--I believe there is always a margin-of-fraud in every election, in normal times it is kept relatively small because poll watchers are close to every stage of the process; the covid measures broke down some of that and may have increased the margin-of-fraud from what it normally is.  There are quite a few suspicious things that happened here, and it's not unreasonable to investigate; PA and GA are both planning an audit, will probably amount to nothing because these things are very difficult to prove, but there's nothing wrong with people holding out for it.  The courts have always favored stability and especially with fraud being very difficult to prove, the investigations and court cases will likely amount to nothing.  But he'd have every right to do so and not concede if he was just saying "I won't concede until after these investigations"; but him asserting with such certitude that he should have won, that's really bothersome.

As far as what happens in January.  I've heard all sorts of nonsense ideas that the military would be needed or something and I just don't understand them.  Trump currently has statutory power in the white house but who has physical power?  The secret service.  You think the secret service would let him stay?  Kinda nonsensical to imagine. 

As far as what to do about the trump supporters who will never accept it?  Well, I think there needs to be an official ceremony to hand over the hashtag "#notmypresident" from the left to the right lol.

[Ash Wednesday]

23 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

Does anyone have thoughts about Trump's brazen refusal to concede? I just don't know how this is going to play out in January. Trump's supporters are die-hard and will follow his lead. My parents, who are most definitely representative of the hardcore Trump base, have said that they will not under any circumstances acknowledge that Trump lost unless Trump himself does. What kind of impact will it have on the country if perhaps 1/3rd of its citizens do not acknowledge the legitimacy of the president? 

I'm also unsure of how to even talk about these issues with them. It seems the Trump base is so full of anger that they refuse to be reasoned with at this point. They are hell-bent on believing this is a rigged election orchestrated by the democrats, and no amount of pointing out the lack of evidence or making reasoned counterarguments (like if this truly was rigged why the democrats wouldn't orchestrate a landslide victory that also included the Senate) makes any difference.

A surprising result of this is that it has made me lose respect I didn't even know I had for Trump. I thought he would at the very least concede with some level of grace, but in retrospect I don't know why I thought that. This is all in keeping with everything else he has ever done.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8924935/Donald-Trump-plans-avoid-Joe-Bidens-inauguration-January.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/07/donald-trump-refuses-to-concede-defeat-as-recriminations-begin

I'm also getting quite frustrated with the amount of devout and well-intending Catholics who are posting about this being a matter of spiritual warfare. They seem to believe Trump is the Lord's Anointed and are saying the forces of darkness are trying to dethrone him and disrupt God's plan. One even posted this gem below on Facebook, to which I just couldn't even. I'm just not even sure how or whether to address this when people talk to me about it. Perhaps time simply needs to pass and the strong feelings being experienced now will die down?

The left weren't exactly gracious winners that accepted the Trump presidency in 2016, either. And I think we need to be fair in that the left also have dished out their own share of anger and vitriol for years now. Surely the devil must laugh at the fools we are making of ourselves across the spectrum. I definitely think that fraud and crooked activity happens in all elections but I'm skeptical that you can rig a nationwide election in this manner. It reminds me of the left when they claimed that Russia interfered in 2016 to the point that the presidency was not legitimate. I tend to be skeptical of those things -- I suppose it's my reluctance to be dismissive of the sentiment of voters, as that can make the situation even worse. 

Anyway, yes, I agree -- people have "anointed" Trump and put him on a spiritual pedestal in a way that I am not comfortable with. I certainly appreciated some of the work the administration did with regards to abortion, appointing justices, and matters of religious freedom. And it's not like I know the state of his soul, but his holding up the bible and references to God or Jesus at his rallies have come across as being a catering towards the religious sensibilities of his base more than anything of personal conviction. I can appreciate that he acknowledges the need for religion to remain in the public sphere. And I would rather see that than downright hostility. But this idea that he's a secretly religious man leading us all in spiritual warfare is too weird for me. There is, of course, a spiritual battle -- but their narrative distorts it.

[Anomaly]

@Lilllabettt is right on with the perception of the non-elite population.   Could Trump be a bit more gracious and cautious in his speech?    Of course, but that is not who he is and what got him elected in the first place. 

You don’t have to be college educated to have a bit of wisdom and common sense.  The bias and partisan divisions in the media is real, and obvious to those who are constantly demeaned and ridiculed.  Factions were upset when Clinton was elected the second time, Bush was immediately and constantly vilified by the media, Obama illegitimacy as a citizen was a hobby of many, and calls to impeach Trump started before he took office.  After all the investigations based on lies, breaking the rules, and dirty tricks, and false polling predictions in two elections, you don’t think a significant portion of the disappointed won’t  be suspicious?

No, I don’t like Trump as a person.   He was marginal as a president and my vote was a NO to Democrat’s policies, not for Trump.  

I’m all for the legal wrangling.  It will at least legitimize the results, and put pressure to properly handle voting.   I’m from Florida.  I know well the Bush - Gore fight and how it came out the Democrat Counties had the problems being accurate (and still do).   Florida has done much to improve the security, and accessibility of the voting system.   It’s important here because it’s evenly split between the parties.  

Let the lawsuits run their course.  It’s our right here in America.  I would expect nothing less from any politician in this close of a race.  

[KnightofChrist]

Trump is simply using the Left's playbook. The same one Gore and Hillary played when they lost the election. Listen to the media and they were heros for fighting the good fight, but he is dangerous for doing the same thing. It's remarkable.

Edited November 8, 2020 by KnightofChrist

[Peace]

10 hours ago, PhuturePriest said:

Does anyone have thoughts about Trump's brazen refusal to concede? I just don't know how this is going to play out in January. Trump's supporters are die-hard and will follow his lead. My parents, who are most definitely representative of the hardcore Trump base, have said that they will not under any circumstances acknowledge that Trump lost unless Trump himself does. What kind of impact will it have on the country if perhaps 1/3rd of its citizens do not acknowledge the legitimacy of the president? 

I think we'll be fine. Side A wins. Side B cries foul, moans, complains, protests, and declares that the world is coming to an end. Then 4 or 8 years later Side B wins, and Side A cries foul, moans, complains, protests, and declares that the world is coming to an end. And on and on and on. It's been going on for  200+ years.

It's just politics.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Peace

[picchick]

I don't speak on politics normally.  I am not as knowledgeable in it because it frustrates me so I don't study or follow it as much.  In other words, don't come down hard on what I say here.  If I say something wrong, be patient and educate me.

Refusal to concede is nothing new to the American History.  It comes in different disguises but it really is all the same.  Remember the hanging chad issue back with Bush-Gore?  And the last election with the whole Russian involvement?

I don't disagree with candidates requesting recounts or anything.  It is an available option so why not take it?  My only thought is they should do it professionally and with dignity which the POTUS is not known to do.