perpetual and temporary vows question

[adoro.te.devote]

I have a strange question! Let's say someone makes a perpetual private vow of chastity. They're perhaps unsure if they would ever be accepted into a community / discerned this is God's will, etc. They do this under the guidance of a spiritual director. Then later on, they are able to enter a religious community, and then they make temporary public vows, and then perpetual public vows. 

My question is - back when they made a perpetual private vow, they meant it to be *perpetual*. Forever. Going from a private to a public vow is no problem. And their intention doesn't change. But - what happens when they have to have a temporary vow again, after having vowed their chastity forever? Does my question even make sense? 

There are lots of Saints who made a private vow first, sometimes when they were children, and they made it perpetually... so for those of them who later became religious, how did it work with having to go from a perpetual vow to a temporary vow again? Also, how would a person truly mean the private vow as perpetual if they think that perhaps, one day they might enter a community, but are not sure? (Let's say they don't want to wait for a decade to find out, and just want to give themselves to God..)

Any help would be appreciated, if my question makes ANY sense 

[Sponsa-Christi]

I think I'm getting where you're coming from...

Basically, a private vow is just a personal commitment between an individual and God, but it is a real commitment, in the sense that you really do need to do what you promised God you would do. 

So it would be kind of weird situation to make a temporary public promise to do something you've already privately promised to do permanently. But even though it's weird, it's not weird in a way that would necessarily present a conflict in terms of canon law, since a public vow is a different category of vow.

Realistically, I think if an aspiring religious made a perpetual private vow of chastity, and then made temporary public vows, this wouldn't be experienced as something superfluous, since temporary public religious vows involve more than just a personal commitment to celibate chastity. I.e., a religious making first vows is vowing either poverty and obedience in addition to chastity; or else is making profession according to an entirely different vow formula which may not even mention chastity explicitly (like the Benedictine vows of stability, obedience, and conversion of life). 

Still...this goes to show that it might be a good idea to hold off on making a perpetual private vow of chastity until you're reasonably sure that you're called to private vows as a life vocation versus being called to religious life. 

[adoro.te.devote]

Thanks for the reply, Sponsa Christi! (I'm also relieved that my question was understood, lol, because I didn't know how to phrase it!). 

I didn't think about the part about canon law and that temporary public vows would mean more. That is true. I just read somewhere that a private vow gets automatically dispensed when one makes a public vow, and that's all fine if the public vow is perpetual, but it feels confusing if it's a temporary one! Like how would a person still intend to give themselves to God forever, if there is a chance they might have to revert to vowing their chastity for a year?

I guess in particular cases this is something to discuss with a director and I think it makes sense to wait and see if religious life works out, but on another hand, I read of people who lived with a private vow before entering religious life, and I wonder how they thought of it.. maybe they thought that they are still keeping that resolution, and still intend to vow their chastity perpetually?

[Lea]

47 minutes ago, adoro.te.devote said:

I guess in particular cases this is something to discuss with a director and I think it makes sense to wait and see if religious life works out, but on another hand, I read of people who lived with a private vow before entering religious life, and I wonder how they thought of it.. maybe they thought that they are still keeping that resolution, and still intend to vow their chastity perpetually?

Well, actually this is how new congregations develop at times. If the foundresses don't leave another congregation they professed vows in, but start "from zero", making private vows before a bishop is a first step, which is not interferring with them going through their own novitiate and temporary profession. 

[adoro.te.devote]

4 minutes ago, Lea said:

Well, actually this is how new congregations develop at times. If the foundresses don't leave another congregation they professed vows in, but start "from zero", making private vows before a bishop is a first step, which is not interferring with them going through their own novitiate and temporary profession. 

oh I wasn't aware of this! any reason why it's before a Bishop though? (from what I understand, private vows are valid if made with no witnesses at all, but are typically made before a priest/SD). Is it because the Bishop would be guiding the community as it starts?

Do you know if those private vows would be temporary or perpetual?

Sorry one more question! Do you know if this is what is always done with forming new communities, or sometimes?

[Feankie]

Making a private vow to a spiritual director is not a vow. And any SD worth her or his salt shouldn't agree to witness such a vow or promise.  That is not our job :)) Perhaps, depending upon the circumstances/maturity/other factors of the directee, we might refer them to their parish priest to discuss the possibility of making a private vow/promise.

Again, I must say that not all SD's are priests, and not all priests are SD's.  There is no requirement in the Roman Catholic Church that mandates  a SD must be a priest.....if there was, lots of us would be out of a ministry! It takes  training, supervision (and on-going supervision at that!) to be certified by the Church.  And most priests don't go through the 2+ years of training post-B.A. and or M.A. that we must.  Just an FYI

[Sponsa-Christi]

2 minutes ago, Francis Clare said:

Making a private vow to a spiritual director is not a vow. And any SD worth her or his salt shouldn't agree to witness such a vow or promise.  That is not our job :)) Perhaps, depending upon the circumstances/maturity/other factors of the directee, we might refer them to their parish priest to discuss the possibility of making a private vow/promise.

A private vow is indeed a vow--it's just not the same thing as a public vow or a religious vow. (cf. canons 1191-1197) 

It is true that a person couldn't make a private vow "to" a spiritual director, because not only would a vow cease to private if it was actually received by someone with the authority to do so in the Church (i.e., at which point it would become public), but a spiritual director almost certainly wouldn't have this sort of authority in the first place.

But, in some cases it might be appropriate to have one's spiritual director witness a private vow, perhaps even as the only witness. For sure the decision to make a private vow is something that should be discerned in conversation with one's spiritual director. And even if an SD's guidance in this regard isn't the last word in someone's discernment, it's advice that should be given serious weight. 

Since a private vow is truly private--as in, a totally personal response to God's love--a person's pastor actually has no real say in whether he or she should make a private vow! As funny as it sounds, the only time a pastor/parish priest is canonically relevant to private vows is if a private vow needs to be dispensed or commuted to some lesser commitment. (Though practically speaking, if someone knows their pastor well, it might make sense to seek his spiritual advice--but only as advice, not as anything like official approval.)

Depending on the young person and depending on the specifics of the situation, I think it could potentially be helpful and appropriate for a very young adult to make a private vow of chastity, whether temporarily or permanently. Granted, it probably wouldn't be prudent for someone like an eighteen-year-old to make a life-long vow of chastity at the very beginning of her discernment. But I can envision, say, a young twenty-something privately vowing chastity for a year or three years at a time while she discerns whether some form of public consecrated life might be right for her, etc.  

Of course, I'm coming at this from the perspective of a consecrated virgin, and in CV circles it's very normal to make a private vow at some point in discernment and/or formation after specifically discussing this with one's SD. 

[Feankie]

A private vow SHOULD be discussed/discerned if one is seeing a SD.  My point was simply that a SD could not/should not  witness a private vow.  It is something that is discouraged in our training.  That does not fall into the purview of spiritual direction.  If a directee wishes to make a private vow, then it should BE private.....between the person and God alone.   If they wish to involve a priest, that is their decision.  We guide.....we don't witness :))

Sponsa-Christi.....I know where you're coming from, and I think you know where I'm coming from :)) I believe we agree, but words are getting in the way!  No "food fights" here over technicalities, please.

[GraceUk]

That's quite a confusing thing to get my head around but say a person was in a religious order decided after perpetual vows that thry had a calling to a different order and transferred there I think thry have go go through the novitiate again starting from scratch. I know it's not quite the same situation.  

And I once asked if a consecrated virgin decided if thst wasn't their vocation after all eould thry need a formal dispensation. And I think the answer was thry didn't. 

Be. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

@Francis ClareJust to be clear, when I talk about SDs witnesses private vows, I mean "witnessing" as more as "being a supportive presence" as opposed to something like "making it official." But if we just need to agree to disagree on this...that's fair enough!  

37 minutes ago, GraceUk said:

That's quite a confusing thing to get my head around but say a person was in a religious order decided after perpetual vows that thry had a calling to a different order and transferred there I think thry have go go through the novitiate again starting from scratch. I know it's not quite the same situation.  

Transferring from one community to another (or from one form of consecrated life to another--like if a CV wanted to become a religious) is a completely different situation from joining a community after having made a private vow. A perpetually professed religious who wanted to transfer communities would not need to do a second novitiate or "start from scratch" in that sense. 

40 minutes ago, GraceUk said:

And I once asked if a consecrated virgin decided if thst wasn't their vocation after all eould thry need a formal dispensation. And I think the answer was thry didn't. 

Actually, a CV who wanted to stop being a CV generally would need a dispensation. But this would from the obligations arising from her consecration. I don't think the Church would say the consecration itself would be dispensed. 

1 hour ago, Francis Clare said:

My point was simply that a SD could not/should not  witness a private vow.  It is something that is discouraged in our training.  

Sorry for not quoting this in the logical place in the thread, but I'm genuinely curious...why would this be discouraged? Is the rationale something like a boundary issue? 

[adoro.te.devote]

3 hours ago, Francis Clare said:

Making a private vow to a spiritual director is not a vow. And any SD worth her or his salt shouldn't agree to witness such a vow or promise.  That is not our job :)) Perhaps, depending upon the circumstances/maturity/other factors of the directee, we might refer them to their parish priest to discuss the possibility of making a private vow/promise.

Again, I must say that not all SD's are priests, and not all priests are SD's.  There is no requirement in the Roman Catholic Church that mandates  a SD must be a priest.....if there was, lots of us would be out of a ministry! It takes  training, supervision (and on-going supervision at that!) to be certified by the Church.  And most priests don't go through the 2+ years of training post-B.A. and or M.A. that we must.  Just an FYI

I'm sorry there must be some confusion, I did not mean making the vow *to* an SD, rather just receiving permission, and I thought it's a normal practice for the SD to be there while the person makes the vow, to God. I have made a private vow of chastity and my SD happens to be my parish priest, so for me this was very logical to have it that way  

I also don't mean having the priest receive the vow in the way a Superior or a Bishop would for religious profession/consecration of virginity. I just meant the priest being there to hear you say the words and then give you a blessing with holy water. I know others have done the same. I also do this for my Marian Consecration. It's not necessary for a priest to be there, but from what I understand it's a normal practice, at least in parishes with the Latin Mass, such as mine. The priest doesn't receive the vow, he just guides the person towards making it and then is present there. I know my vow would still be valid otherwise, but it was nice that my priest could be present.

2 hours ago, Francis Clare said:

A private vow SHOULD be discussed/discerned if one is seeing a SD.  My point was simply that a SD could not/should not  witness a private vow.  It is something that is discouraged in our training.  That does not fall into the purview of spiritual direction.  If a directee wishes to make a private vow, then it should BE private.....between the person and God alone.   If they wish to involve a priest, that is their decision.  We guide.....we don't witness :))

Sponsa-Christi.....I know where you're coming from, and I think you know where I'm coming from :)) I believe we agree, but words are getting in the way!  No "food fights" here over technicalities, please.

I understand that an SD cannot receive a vow, but I never heard the idea that an SD should not simply witness a vow, in terms of just being there. I know someone who lives with private vows and her SD (who is also a priest) was there when she made it, and from what I understand, this is also the case of someone who writes on a blog and lives with a private vow (Mulier Fortis, I think is her online name). 

I wonder if perhaps it depends on the spiritual direction? In all of these cases that I heard of, the SD was a priest and often the parish priest. For me, he was there to give me a blessing. Like I said, it's very common to make the Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary in the same way. 

From what I understand, a private vow simply means that it wasn't officially received by the Church. But it's ok to have witnesses, even to invite people, though personally I would prefer not to. My priest, as the guide to my spiritual life, is someone I would definitely want to be there when I make such a big commitment. I've only made a temporary vow so far, but if I was to ever make a perpetual one, that would be even more the case... 

I understand this is what you have been told in your training, but I've always heard of priests being present at vows ?

Could you please clarify what you mean by witnessing? perhaps I am misunderstanding the topic! My understanding is that witnesses don't make a vow public. It's private even if there are witnesses, if it's not received in the name of the Church by a legitimate Superior.

[Guest]

I have made life private vows and our Archbishop approved a Home Mass in order to renew those vows.  The priest religious celebrant was a witness only as were the few people I had invited to the Mass.  Witness to me simply means they were present and heard my spoken aloud renewal of the vows.  Private vows are never public vows, no matter how many people may have witnessed.  "Private" and "Public" are canon law terms and definitions to distinguish between the two types of vow.

[adoro.te.devote]

2 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

I have made life private vows and our Archbishop approved a Home Mass in order to renew those vows.  The priest religious celebrant was a witness only as were the few people I had invited to the Mass.  Witness to me simply means they were present and heard my spoken aloud renewal of the vows.  Private vows are never public vows, no matter how many people may have witnessed.  "Private" and "Public" are canon law terms and definitions to distinguish between the two types of vow.

That is my understanding as well! that's wonderful that you were able to make the renewal of your vows so special! If I get to make a perpetual private vow as well, I would love to make it special as well. I realized recently that it's a commitment we make forever and ever, unlike earthly marriage, it doesn't end at death! that just made me think how beautiful it is and imo it's totally appropriate to celebrate it  

[Lea]

12 hours ago, adoro.te.devote said:

oh I wasn't aware of this! any reason why it's before a Bishop though? (from what I understand, private vows are valid if made with no witnesses at all, but are typically made before a priest/SD). Is it because the Bishop would be guiding the community as it starts?

Do you know if those private vows would be temporary or perpetual?

Sorry one more question! Do you know if this is what is always done with forming new communities, or sometimes?

I just know one new community where this was the case and was told it was formally correct. Of course this doesn't mean that there couldn't be other correct options as well

Professing those vows before the bishop in one's diocese might help lateron to get the community affirmed. 

[gloriana35]

The temporary vow (and, ultimately, perpetual vow) has to do with a commitment to a congregation/Order/Society, as well as poverty, chastity, and obedience (if these are professed - some congregations only vow obedience.) Making the temporary vow in community doesn't mean that one's perpetual vows before then are not binding.