Trump's position on the far right

[Peace]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

Define sexism. 

Yeah I am not even going down another rabbit-hole with you. If you want to take the stance that Trump is not sexist, have at it.

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

And even if he were overtly racist, which he isn't (if anything it's hidden somewhat), his policies and actions have greatly helped minorities, so I'd still vote for him this year just on policy alone.

Yeah I don't know about all that. Someone is drinking the Kool-aid, but I should have known that when you wrote that Trump is the "least racist president in history."

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

Someone just needs to ask a question for a discussion to occur.  It need not be an accusation.

Except if we are talking about "The Left" of course. Then we can accuse away.

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

I'm not taking offense.  I'm just trying to defend the good name of another.

Yeah, I don't think his name was very good to start off with, but that's cool.

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

Ultimately you're just one dude, amid millions more who think the guy is racist.  And that's all I can really do, is try to defend him against one.

But why so enthusiastic with the defense? You really need to create a thread like "Yeah, anyone who thinks Trump is racist is crazy or full of hate?" as if the man is nearly a saint? You are honestly telling me that you can see no good reason why "millions" have concluded that he is racist?

I can understand folks who vote for Trump as a flawed candidate, or the "lesser of two evils". But I don't get folks who are enthusiastic about the man or feel some strong need to go around defending the man. I don't get that at all.

6 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

What are you referring to?

Trump advocates for abortion rights in the case of rape and incest. He also advocates for the torture of war criminals or suspected terrorists. Those are both intrinsic evils.

1 hour ago, Jaime said:

So I have had friends that have said things like "You're Catholic? Have you ever thought about being Christian?"  I don't consider them anti Catholic (while the stance is objectively anti-Catholic) I just think they're stupid.  

I've been holding the opinion that Trump is really stupid on messaging.  Objectively I can see how one can see that as racist.  But on the flip side, he built an economy with the lowest black and hispanic unemployment in forever.  He genuinely seemed pleased with that.  I think if he was racist he'd feel the opposite.

So the obvious retort is being racist is by definition stupid.  I agree with that.  And I wouldn't come within 50 ft of defending him on women. He's a pig.

That's cool I suppose. Yeah, I don't think he is stupid. I think he knows exactly what he is doing. But that's just me.

[fides' Jack]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yeah I am not even going down another rabbit-hole with you. If you want to take the stance that Trump is not sexist, have at it.

In point of fact I didn't take that stance.  Did you read the post you're responding to?

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yeah I don't know about all that. Someone is drinking the Kool-aid, but I should have known that when you wrote that Trump is "probably the least racist president in history."

Fixed the quote.  I'm not stating it outright.  Racism is nothing new.  I've heard arguments stating that Lincoln was racist in some ways.  But I'll give you a new quote to get upset about: Trump is the least racist president in recent history.

Obviously both sides here see the other as drinking the koolaid.  And I've heard that particular statement from both sides very recently, mostly regarding covid nonsense.

6 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yeah, I don't think his name was very good to start off with, but that's cool.

Agreed.  It's a figure of speech.  It doesn't have to mean his name is completely unsullied or innocent already.

6 minutes ago, Peace said:

Except if we are talking about "The Left" of course. Then we can accuse away.

If we're talking generalities, sure.  "The Left" hasn't been defined in this argument, yet.

But this response indicates that you either didn't understand my comment here, or chose to throw up a straw man, anyway.

11 minutes ago, Peace said:

But why so enthusiastic with the defense? You really need to create a thread like "Yeah, anyone who thinks Trump is racist is crazy or full of hate?"

I didn't create a thread like that.  It devolved into that.

Honestly, there was another thread somewhere in which people had already been calling Trump racist.  I looked for that one, first, because I wanted to post that video (the first one here).  I couldn't find it in 5 minutes or so, so I started a new one devoted to the topic, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.  Does that seem unreasonable to you?

17 minutes ago, Peace said:

You are honestly telling me that you can see no good reason why "millions" have concluded that he is racist?

Oh, no, I didn't say that.  I understand perfectly well why millions have concluded that he's racist.  I stated the reason outright multiple times, now.  Here's what I said: "At this point, if you think he's racist, you either don't know what the word means, or you've bought into the agenda that the left has been feeding people for years.  Or you're just straight-up lying.  I will assume the best."

Oh wait, you said, "good reason".  Not "a reason".  No, there is no good reason, unless it's a reason that everyone is keeping to themselves while spouting falsehoods (usually about the Charleston conference or the MS-13 lies).  That doesn't mean people who repeat these things are lying, themselves.  Like I said, I will assume the best.

25 minutes ago, Peace said:

as if the man is nearly a saint?

Ha!  Trump - a saint?!  I don't know why people keep throwing that at his defenders.  I don't think anyone sees him as a holy man.  If they do see him that way, they don't know what the word "saint" means, or they're unwilling to see truth when it's blinding them from a thousand different directions.  Or they're just straight-up lying.

29 minutes ago, Peace said:

But I don't get folks who are enthusiastic about the man or feel some strong need to go around defending the man.

Well, these are two very different things.  I was never enthusiastic about Trump.  I'm still not.  He has other qualities that sometimes make me wonder if he's actually the antichrist.  I'm not kidding in the slightest.

I feel a strong need to defend him against accusations of racism because it's the Christian thing to do.  As a Christian, if someone is slandering (libeling?) someone else, regardless of who that other person is, I feel I have a duty to defend them against that slander/libel, if it's within my power to do so.

 

Look, Peace, I have some respect for you.  If you choose to bow-out of this discussion, feel free to do so.  Just know that if you do, it'll be like saying that I'm right and I win.  

[Jaime]

53 minutes ago, Peace said:

 

That's cool I suppose. Yeah, I don't think he is stupid. I think he knows exactly what he is doing. But that's just me.

REALLY?  The Babylon Bee wrote an article that Twitter shut down the entire site to prevent people saying bad things about Biden and Trump retweeted it!

[fides' Jack]

 

18 minutes ago, Jaime said:

REALLY?  The Babylon Bee wrote an article that Twitter shut down the entire site to prevent people saying bad things about Biden and Trump retweeted it!

Should I take it, from the context here, that the Babylon Bee is a satirical outlet?  

...

Uh, yes.  Yes it is - confirmed. 

[Peace]

18 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Fixed the quote.  I'm not stating it outright.  Racism is nothing new.  I've heard arguments stating that Lincoln was racist in some ways.  But I'll give you a new quote to get upset about: Trump is the least racist president in recent history.

If that floats your boat continue to believe it. I can't take you seriously.

18 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Oh, no, I didn't say that.  I understand perfectly well why millions have concluded that he's racist.  I stated the reason outright multiple times, now.  Here's what I said: "At this point, if you think he's racist, you either don't know what the word means, or you've bought into the agenda that the left has been feeding people for years.  Or you're just straight-up lying.  I will assume the best."

Oh wait, you said, "good reason".  Not "a reason".  No, there is no good reason, unless it's a reason that everyone is keeping to themselves while spouting falsehoods (usually about the Charleston conference or the MS-13 lies).  That doesn't mean people who repeat these things are lying, themselves.  Like I said, I will assume the best.

That's fine. Again, I can't take you seriously if you cannot see anything problematic when it comes to Trump and the issue of race. To me, you seem like a political hack of sorts. A conservative shill who is brainwashed in the same manner that you suggest liberals are brainwashed by the left. Two sides of the same coin really.

18 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I feel a strong need to defend him against accusations of racism because it's the Christian thing to do.  As a Christian, if someone is slandering (libeling?) someone else, regardless of who that other person is, I feel I have a duty to defend them against that slander/libel, if it's within my power to do so.

That's cool, but I can't take this seriously given how quick you were to accuse a large group of Americans on the left as demonic. Slandering is apparently cool if it is done against those on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

18 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Look, Peace, I have some respect for you.  If you choose to bow-out of this discussion, feel free to do so.  Just know that if you do, it'll be like saying that I'm right and I win.  

You can have the win if that floats your boat. Can't agree on everything.

25 minutes ago, Jaime said:

REALLY?  The Babylon Bee wrote an article that Twitter shut down the entire site to prevent people saying bad things about Biden and Trump retweeted it!

No, I don't think he is stupid at all. I would say more of an evil genius. There is really no reason why he should have won in 2016. Pulling that out was a minor miracle, and it takes more than a dummy to do that.

[fides' Jack]

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

To me, you seem like a political hack of sorts. A conservative shill who is brainwashed in the same manner that you suggest liberals are brainwashed by the left.

As a rule, I don't resort to name-calling.  If you read my posts carefully, you'll see I didn't cross that line.

Soo...  yeah.

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

That's cool, but I can't take this seriously given how quick you were to accuse a large group of Americans on the left as demonic. Slandering is apparently cool if it is done against those on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

Slander is always sinful.  I didn't slander (libel) anyone.  Certainly nobody specific.  And I was very clear in that regard.

Do you take Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church seriously?  Because it's always been taught by the Church, and it's clear in the Book of Revelation, that in the end times, almost everybody will bow to the rule of the antichrist, who is fully controlled by the devil.

Whether or not we're in those times, now, as a Catholic you are obligated to believe that at some point, there will be a situation in which most people on the earth will accept a demonic regime.

I don't require that you take me seriously.  But I would expect you to take the teachings of the Church seriously.  And if you do, and you accept that it will happen at some point, why is it not worth taking it seriously when someone says it might be now?

And I'll clarify, I do think that time is now.  So take me seriously or not, but my message is this: repent, and make use of the sacraments while you can, because there's a good chance leftist ideology is leading to the apocalypse, and that the antichrist will be identifiable within the next decade.

[Peace]

58 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

repent, and make use of the sacraments while you can

No disagreements there.

Quote

because there's a good chance leftist ideology is leading to the apocalypse, and that the antichrist will be identifiable within the next decade.

About as good of a chance as the million other times people predicted the apocalypse. We need to get you a tin foil hat.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Peace

[fides' Jack]

31 minutes ago, Peace said:

About as good of a chance as the million other times people predicted the apocalypse. We need to get you a tin foil hat.

Hey, I'll take whatever I can get.  

[Ice_nine]

Peace, let's say Trump is racist in that, he actually thinks Blacks and Hispanics are dumber, less refined, or just even worth less than white people. However, under his policies Blacks and Hispanics generally fare better.

And then you have a candidate who doesn't believe other races are inferior that enacts policies that actively harm other races.
 

wHo dO yOu cHoSe?

[Peace]

9 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

Peace, let's say Trump is racist in that, he actually thinks Blacks and Hispanics are dumber, less refined, or just even worth less than white people. However, under his policies Blacks and Hispanics generally fare better.

And then you have a candidate who doesn't believe other races are inferior that enacts policies that actively harm other races.

wHo dO yOu cHoSe?

But seriously (and this ain't directed at you personally) - why do white people seem to love saying that XYZ candidate / policy has been good for black people? I mean, it would be like, me, a black man, sitting here and saying that Jimmy Carter was the best president for Jews and that the recent tax cut has been beneficial to Jewish interests. If I said that, Jewish people would be like "Who the F are you to state what is good for us"? It's almost like this deeply ingrained paternalistic sort of attitude that white folks seem to have whereby they presume to have a right to think for us, or to evaluate our well-being based on their own standards.

Anyway.That's just a thought. It's something that I have often noticed with white folks. Not directed at you in particular.

Under those circumstances? Me personally, I would vote for Trump. I mean, if I walk into a store and there is a Klan member behind the register, I don't think it would bother me all that much as long as he puts on a wide goofy looking smile and says "Thank you for your business" after quickly fetching whatever it was I was I asked him to ring up. What people believe internally is of little consequence to me when deciding how to act. It's the practical effects of those beliefs I would say that matters. Most likely, if there is a Klan member behind the register, he is going to spit in my drink or what have you. That would be the issue.

Now, if were are talking about reality, I wouldn't choose Biden over Trump based on some notion that Biden is less racist than Trump. I don't view Biden, or the Dems generally, as some friend of black people. Let's call Trump the wolf and Biden the fox. I don't necessarily think their motives are all that different, they just have different means of going about of achieving their objectives (consolidating power).

[Ice_nine]

I never said Trump was good for black people. I was offering a hypothetical which may or may not apply to the current election. Maybe I should have been clearer.

But since you asked, I would think the Jews in your current example would have no reason to react so prickly. I don't know why it's necessarily paternalistic. You can look at objective data and say certain things have been better for a certain group of people.

If unemployment drops or rises for a certain group I could say that's good or bad no? Of course having a job isn't the end all be all. Why can't you look at a specific metric for a specific group and reason that "it's better." I just don't understand why that's a problem.

Maybe it's not necessarily a race thing. If someone tells you something is good for you, I guess a general response would be "how the hell do you know?" Maybe that's more of a fallen nature thing, whether the reaction or the proposition itself.

 

[Peace]

37 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I never said Trump was good for black people. I was offering a hypothetical which may or may not apply to the current election. Maybe I should have been clearer.

Yeah I understood that it was a hypo. It reminded me of that experience of mine, so I asked you about it, being the spokesperson for white America that you are. I didn't mean to make it about you personally.

Quote

But since you asked, I would think the Jews in your current example would have no reason to react so prickly. I don't know why it's necessarily paternalistic. You can look at objective data and say certain things have been better for a certain group of people.

You can say, for example, "black unemployment has decreased under the Trump administration."  No issues with something like that.

A parent can decide what is good or bad for a child, or what the child's priorities should be, depending on the standard that the parent sets. Once the child becomes an adult, he says "I decide how to live my life for myself, and I decide what is good or bad according to my own standard."

If you say "Trump's policies have been good for black people" that would be paternalistic I think. It would presume, I think, that you can set a standard for what our priorities should be. So, let's say that the unemployment rate is low. That may be all well and good from your perspective, but black people are concerned about folks getting killed by the police (or some other issue, for example).

I mean, with Trump, I don't know exactly, but I am guessing that by now about say 90% of us would say that Trump has not been good president for us. Then a random white person comes along and says "Trump's policies have been great for black Americans. In fact, he has been the greatest president that black America has every had." I think you can see how that would be pretty annoying. It's kind of like a parent speaking to a child who does not know what is good for himself.

Quote

If unemployment drops or rises for a certain group I could say that's good or bad no? Of course having a job isn't the end all be all. Why can't you look at a specific metric for a specific group and reason that "it's better." I just don't understand why that's a problem.

Yeah, no issue with looking at specific metrics and saying that black XYZ has increased or decreased under Trump. But in my own (limited) experience that's generally not how the conversation begins. That's not really the vibe I get most of the time.

Quote

Maybe it's not necessarily a race thing. If someone tells you something is good for you, I guess a general response would be "how the hell do you know?" Maybe that's more of a fallen nature thing, whether the reaction or the proposition itself.

Yeah, this is more of the issue. Like, if it is your wife, or something like that, someone that you really know or really have a vested interest in, then I think it could be different. But the vibe I really get with it a lot of the times, is kind of like a supervisor speaking to an employee kind of vibe. Or like a smart person speaking to a dunce kind of a vibe. Kind of like the some of the folks at the start of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2LpFkVfYk

Edited October 22, 2020 by Peace

[fides' Jack]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

Then a random white person comes along and says "Trump's policies have been great for black Americans. In fact, he has been the greatest president that black America has every had." I think you can see how that would be pretty annoying. It's kind of like a parent speaking to a child who does not know what is good for himself.

I can see that being pretty annoying.

And I get your point about letting people have their own priorities.

But there are also objective facts.  You don't seem to have an issue with that, so I'll leave it there.

"In fact, he has been the greatest president that black America has every had." - If you're implying I said that, I didn't.

[Didacus]

9 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

[Snip]

"In fact, he has been the greatest president that black America has every had." 

[Snip]

I dare say he's the greatest president Canada has ever had!  

ChooChoo!  All aboard the Trump-train!!!

[fides' Jack]

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