Trump's position on the far right

[Ice_nine]

11 hours ago, Peace said:

I support a good border, even perhaps with a wall or a gate too.

I ain't gonna try to prove it to you pal. If you want to make excuses for his behavior or try to explain it away, that is your business.

But from my standpoint, it would be like arguing with a child that 2 + 2 does not equal 4. I honestly think that anyone who does not understand it is an idiot or oblivious.

I used to think this was evidence for Trump's racism. I have become less sure of that due to the media's piss-poor coverage of him. I mean there are plenty of criticisms you can leverage against Trump, but they consistently come at him with, I hate to say it but it's true, fake news. 

So I have to look into it more to get the context. The "very fine people on both sides" clip, if you play that for a few more seconds he clarifies to exclude white supremacists from that group. And the "they're rapists and murderers" one, which I was initially shocked by, I've recently heard he was referring to MS-13, not Mexicans in general. I'm not sure and I'll have to dig into the context of that more.

Listen, I had your exact same opinion. People who don't realize he's racist must be stupid or ignorant. Maybe I've recently been brainwashed but I'm just not so sure of that assertion any longer. Maybe because I'm somewhat of a reactionary, my media diet has shifted to the right, or maybe I am just an idiot. But I'm not so sure he's racist (if we're using the old definition of the word. The new definition, I'm a default racist and pretty much everyone in the majority is also racist).

[Peace]

3 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I agree with everything else you said.  I think we're actually largely on the same page, except for our current view of the world.  For this, I did not say that the US was the first to abolish slavery.  I said it was the freedoms that the US enjoyed that changed the culture of the west enough to make it possible to abolish slavery.  It's my understanding we were 3rd - UK was first, I think, and there was another country... maybe France?  I'm too lazy to google it.

But yeah, I agree, slavery was not always about race.  

And I agree it's not about Democrats vs Republicans.  I do think Republicans have the better history, but I also think Republicans today are almost entirely leftists now, too.

And I'll admit that it IS hard for me to understand the racial tensions that are out there.  I've had this conversation several times with my wife - she grew up in Atlanta and saw it first-hand.  But yet, she's not racist, and she's just as white as I am.  So... yeah.  I don't get it.  But I also don't see racism where other people do.  I do see a lot of the left calling people racist - most notably the president.  But I haven't seen any evidence of that (only lies about it), so I'll defend him from that attack.

I was just watching this, and I think it speaks to the heart of the issue:

 

 

Yeah there is a big perception gap I think. A lot of folks on the right side of the isle would often say things like "President Obama is a racist" which I found quite comical, but I guess from their perspective they felt like they were being targeted by some statements that he made. But then the same folks turn around, see some of the stuff Trump has said, and can't see the slightest hint of racism at all. It's almost as if we are living in two different worlds it seems sometimes. As for the video, you'll have to give me an executive summary.

23 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

I used to think this was evidence for Trump's racism. I have become less sure of that due to the media's piss-poor coverage of him. I mean there are plenty of criticisms you can leverage against Trump, but they consistently come at him with, I hate to say it but it's true, fake news. 

So I have to look into it more to get the context. The "very fine people on both sides" clip, if you play that for a few more seconds he clarifies to exclude white supremacists from that group. And the "they're rapists and murderers" one, which I was initially shocked by, I've recently heard he was referring to MS-13, not Mexicans in general. I'm not sure and I'll have to dig into the context of that more.

Listen, I had your exact same opinion. People who don't realize he's racist must be stupid or ignorant. Maybe I've recently been brainwashed but I'm just not so sure of that assertion any longer. Maybe because I'm somewhat of a reactionary, my media diet has shifted to the right, or maybe I am just an idiot. But I'm not so sure he's racist (if we're using the old definition of the word. The new definition, I'm a default racist and pretty much everyone in the majority is also racist).

Well I'll agree that there is a big media campaign against him, and that his message is often distorted. That being said, my view of him is based on the things that have came out of his actual mouth, and the particular issues that he has chosen to focus on. If other folks have a different opinion of him that is perfectly fine by me though. I don't have some deep psychological need to prove to people that he is racist, although I personally believe that he is. I think that I gave him the benefit doubt in assessing him, honestly, but if you add everything up, I see a 2 +2 = 4 situation.

What are the new and old definitions?

[Anomaly]

I’m guessing the old racist definition is “Intentional behavior to act against another based on disdain for that specific race.”

New definition is “Behavior that may be interpreted as an act biased against a specific race, regardless of intent, conscious or subconscious.”

[fides' Jack]

31 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

I’m guessing the old racist definition is “Intentional behavior to act against another based on disdain for that specific race.”

New definition is “Behavior that may be interpreted as an act biased against a specific race, regardless of intent, conscious or subconscious.”

The new definition is a joke, and can be applied to any and every situation, based on nothing but whim. 

I guess I go by the old definition.

14 hours ago, Ice_nine said:

And the "they're rapists and murderers" one, which I was initially shocked by, I've recently heard he was referring to MS-13, not Mexicans in general. I'm not sure and I'll have to dig into the context of that more.

That is indeed the case.  Watch the entire clip, it's not even close.  It's absolutely clear he's just talking about the MS-13 gang.  It's as clear as is the "Fine people on both sides" quote.

If you watch the very recent town hall meetings, and kind of watch them both side-by-side, as much as is possible, it becomes certain that the media has not given him a fair chance.  They don't go after anything that Biden has done (and he's said some very racist and very direct things recently, and it hasn't been mentioned by the left once), and they crucify Trump, almost entirely by taking him out of context, in order to ruin his image (in a seriously sinful way) so people won't vote for him.

If they have actual dirt on him, why don't they use the actual dirt and not make up lies to smear him?

The worst thing they actually have on him is what he said years ago about grabbing women.  There's no evidence he actually did grab women that way, but he made the comment and it was inappropriate.

And honestly, that just doesn't make sense - how can that be the worst they have on him?  I've said worse things than that.  And this guy grew up rich, spoiled, in the public eye, lived the playboy life, and who knows what all else...  I mean, before 2015, he was raised up by the left as some kind of hero, because he was rich and famous.  And now, if you don't actually hate Trump, they will do everything they can to ruin your life. 

It's demonic.

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

I’m guessing the old racist definition is “Intentional behavior to act against another based on disdain for that specific race.”

New definition is “Behavior that may be interpreted as an act biased against a specific race, regardless of intent, conscious or subconscious.”

This is silly. Nobody has defined racism according to your "New definition".

As for the "old definition" I think Merriam Webster's dictionary suffices:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

1) a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2) the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

[Anomaly]

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

This is silly. Nobody has defined racism according to your "New definition".

As for the "old definition" I think Merriam Webster's dictionary suffices:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

1) a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2) the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

Peace,

You are probably the top of my list of people I would enjoy drinking a beer with while bantering.    But I think you’re wrong in what others think the new “working” definition of racism is.  And therein is one of the difficulties is discussing how to address racism.   The different definitions has one side defensive and the other side offended at the get-go. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Anomaly

[Peace]

Just now, Anomaly said:

Peace,

You are probably the top of my list of people I would enjoy drinking a beer with while bantering.    But I think you’re wrong in what others think the new definition of racism is.  And therein is one of the difficulties is discussing how to address racism.   The different definitions has one side defensive and the other side offended at the get-go. 

What kind of beer is the question.

You may think I am wrong and that is all well and good, but the fact is that there is not one person on the planet Earth who has publicly defined racism, for himself, according to your "New Definition".

Regardless. The problem is easily solved. One merely need to define "racism" for the purpose of the discussion (as I did above, for example).

[Anomaly]

20 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Peace,

You are probably the top of my list of people I would enjoy drinking a beer with while bantering.    But I think you’re wrong in what others think the new “working” definition of racism is.  And therein is one of the difficulties is discussing how to address racism.   The different definitions has one side defensive and the other side offended at the get-go. 

It’s beer.   There’s too many kinds to pick one.   If you don’t like it, don’t drink a second one. 

I find it difficult to believe too many people behave in a racial manner based on your Miriam definitions.  I do believe that people do behave in prejudicial manners based on Cultural differences that may happen to be grouped on shared culture of racial groups.   For example, as a white guy walking in a strange neighborhood, if a black man addresses me with a “Hey, man” i’d Think nothing of it.     Same guy, same neighborhood it’s “Yo, yo, wotie”, I’d be nervous.  I’d be nervous if the guy was any color, because I have no idea how this stranger is addressing me.  (Unless I was in n’awlins). 

Is my trepidation racist, or cultural because I can’t interpret wotie and guess at the guy’s intentions?    It’s survival instinct to distrust strangers of unknown intent. Throw in constant media and cultural pressures that differences need to be adversarial.  

[Didacus]

There is nothing racist with reacting favorably to something that is familiar.  It is perfectly natural to have a pisitive reaction to something to which you are accustomed.

If somwone in town greets me in french... i always like it... i'm french, that's just natural.

Does that mean i hate english speaking people?

My team is the Montreal Canadiens (no surprises there-right?).  Do I hate Leaf fans... no...  but i might be more incline to buy a beer to a fellow Montreal fan than a stinking no good english speaking Leaf fan... just saying...

[fides' Jack]

Is wotie an actual word in New Orleans?  I mean, I know it's not a real word, but is that something people say?  And if so, what does it mean?

[Didacus]

Just now, fides' Jack said:

Is wotie an actual word in New Orleans?  I mean, I know it's not a real word, but is that something people say?  And if so, what does it mean?

And what language is it?

[fides' Jack]

 

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

It’s beer.   There’s too many kinds to pick one.   If you don’t like it, don’t drink a second one. 

Nah man we need to establish a baseline here. Are we talking Guinness or IC Light?

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

I find it difficult to believe too many people behave in a racial manner based on your Miriam definitions.  I do believe that people do behave in prejudicial manners based on Cultural differences that may happen to be grouped on shared culture of racial groups.   For example, as a white guy walking in a strange neighborhood, if a black man addresses me with a “Hey, man” i’d Think nothing of it.     Same guy, same neighborhood it’s “Yo, yo, wotie”, I’d be nervous.  I’d be nervous if the guy was any color, because I have no idea how this stranger is addressing me.  (Unless I was in n’awlins). 

Is my trepidation racist, or cultural because I can’t interpret wotie and guess at the guy’s intentions?    It’s survival instinct to distrust strangers of unknown intent. Throw in constant media and cultural pressures that differences need to be adversarial.  

 A fairly interesting question. What definition are we using? If we are using the dictionary definitions above, I would say no.

But there could be something there worth exploring. Let's say that the next day you visited another unknown neighborhood and a white man addressed you with "Yo, wotie" and you thought it was funny or interesting, but were not nervous in the least.

Could that tell us anything about how you view the two races?

[Anomaly]

Wotie is like homey.  It means you are from the same neighborhood or ward.   I’ve heard it here in Florida in a “cultural” context, but I first heard it from family in New Orleans years ago and happened to know the meaning.  In my experience ,  it’s actually friendlier than “hey man”, but I’m not really up to date in modern slang to be sure otherwise.  

My point is it’s cultural.   And your culture is based on shared experience with family first, then people you’re around.  

Trump’s statements and actions are filtered through his cultural perspective.  It’s right to point out discriminatory effects, but I’d say it’s difficult for him to see the other perspective, but not based in actual animosity. 

Beer standards are personal.   That’s why they make so many.  I drink anything I like, from Naturdays to Felinfoil Stout, most IPA’s are least liked. 

If I white guy addressed me as “Hey suban” Id be nervous as I don’t know him, I’m in a strange neighborhood, and I have no idea what he means.    If I don’t know what they mean and things are unfamiliar, it’s bad survival instincts to not be cautious. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Anomaly

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Trump’s statements and actions are filtered through his cultural perspective.  It’s right to point out discriminatory effects, but I’d say it’s difficult for him to see the other perspective, but not based in actual animosity.

And what if that "cultural perspective" is racist?

Alright man how do you defend this as not being racist? The full video is presented here so you can't pretend that it was manipulated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDxlMelzl10

Tepper flat out asks Trump if the reason why he thinks the judge is biased is because of his Mexican ancestry. Trump flat out says "Yes."

If you say that a judge is incapable of handing out an unbiased ruling (a.k.a. doing his job) because of his racial background - in what world is that not racist?

Edited October 16, 2020 by Peace