Trump's position on the far right

[Peace]

10 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Are you saying the average white person is racist?

I would say that the average white American is racist, let's say if we define racism as the belief that one's own racial group is superior to others.

10 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I think there was a point when 90% of black Americans would have leaned that way, because they were Democrats. 

That point was yesterday friend. The same is likely true today. I don't think it has anything to do with being Democrats though. The sentiment was not the same with respect to John McCain, for example.

10 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

That number is dropping fast, as the black community is learning just how bad for them the Democrat party really is.

Yes, yes. Blacks vote overwhelmingly for the Dems because they are all very naive, like children, who do not even know how to vote according to their best interests. Please show us the way, O' great wise one who truly knows what is best for us.

10 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

And I would say anyone who keeps touting the Democrat party lie that most white people are racist or that Trump is racist is under the control of satan and needs to stop listening to his voice in the media.

That's cool by me if you feel that way.

FWIW I would say that we could also say that the average black American as racist as well, if we use a slightly broader definition along the lines of something like "having a disdain for members of another ethnic group."

[fides' Jack]

2 minutes ago, Peace said:

I would say that the average white American is racist, let's say if we define racism as the belief that one's own racial group is superior to others.

It's not cool by me that you feel this way... 

What makes you think this?  Do you think it's something in white skin color that leads us this way?  Or is it the "evidence" you see in the media?

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

That point was yesterday friend. The same is likely true today. I don't think it has anything to do with being Democrats though. The sentiment was not the same with respect to John McCain, for example.

That point wasn't yesterday.  And John McCain turned out to be a sellout.  I didn't really like him as a presidential candidate, but I had respect for him for his service to our country.  I lost it when it became clear he was a tool for the left.

3 minutes ago, Peace said:

Yes, yes. Blacks vote overwhelmingly for the Dems because they are all very naive, like children, who do not even know how to vote according to their best interests. Please show us the way, O' great wise one who truly knows what is best for us.

Are you trying to twist my words to make it sound like I believe black people are naive?  That's certainly a leftist move right now.

I think most everyone is naive.  I think the majority of people who call themselves Catholic are Demonrats - and they're naive.  

Demonrats are mostly white.  It's interesting to me that with all these clips of BLM rioters, it's almost entirely white people doing the rioting.  Have you noticed that?  What's your take on that?

[Anomaly]

20 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I get that you're not Catholic, but I would be very careful judging other people's thoughts.  We only know what people say and do, but we can't know what they think.

Are you saying the average white person is racist?  That's an extremely ironic statement.

—————

And I would say anyone who keeps touting the Democrat party lie that most white people are racist or that Trump is racist is under the control of satan and needs to stop listening to his voice in the media.

Being Catholic or not, has nothing to do with formulating an opinion on persons intent.  Even ants communicate intent. It’s an organism thing. 

 

As as well as it’s reasonable and rational from the perspective of people with a history of suffering prejudices to be hyper aware.    Throw in sensationalized coverage for political and materialistic gains, here we are, struggling to keep an enlightening conversation from devolving into a heated argument.  

 

 

[fides' Jack]

1 minute ago, Anomaly said:

Being Catholic or not, has nothing to do with formulating an opinion on persons intent.  Even ants communicate intent. It’s an organism thing. 

 

As as well as it’s reasonable and rational from the perspective of people with a history of suffering prejudices to be hyper aware.    Throw in sensationalized coverage for political and materialistic gains, here we are, struggling to keep an enlightening conversation from devolving into a heated argument.  

 

 

Well, at least there's consistency in that view, but it's definitely not one I share.  I make it a point never to allow myself to claim knowledge of another's thoughts.  I don't feel I have the right to do so.

I will say, the reason I'm perfectly willing to get into a heated argument over this is because I see it as a religious matter, not a political matter.  Perhaps that's an imperfection; I don't know.  But the very souls of Americans are at stake, with everything going on right now from the battle over abortion to the election to the riots to the face masks and vaccines.  We're at war right now - a religious war, and a war of ideas.  The prize will be God's kingdom on Earth, and so that's what I'm fighting for.

[Peace]

10 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

It's not cool by me that you feel this way... 

That's understandable. We all like to think of ourselves in the best light.

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What makes you think this? 

I would say that my opinion is based on my own personal experience living as a black person in the USA, my own personal interactions with people, and conclusions drawn from the sad racial history of the US, data and the like.

I'll give you an interesting antecedent. When I moved to Japan for about 5 years, many of my white American friends would complain day and night about how racist the Japanese were. To me, I hardly noticed any difference at all. In many respects I thought it was actually better. I think the difference was that in the USA, they were in the majority, but in Japan they were in the minority. You feel it a lot more when you are in the minority, which is why I think it came as a big shock to many of them.

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Do you think it's something in white skin color that leads us this way? 

Absolutely not. I would say that the beliefs are ingrained, from the culture at large.

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Or is it the "evidence" you see in the media?

I honestly don't watch a ton of TV.

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That point wasn't yesterday. 

OK. Two days ago.

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And John McCain turned out to be a sellout.  I didn't really like him as a presidential candidate, but I had respect for him for his service to our country.  I lost it when it became clear he was a tool for the left.

That's cool by me if you don't like his politics.

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Are you trying to twist my words to make it sound like I believe black people are naive?

That is what it sounded like to me.

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I think most everyone is naive.  I think the majority of people who call themselves Catholic are Demonrats - and they're naive.  

That's fair.

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Demonrats are mostly white.  It's interesting to me that with all these clips of BLM rioters, it's almost entirely white people doing the rioting.  Have you noticed that?  What's your take on that?

I honestly haven't been tuning into the TV that much with respect to seeing who is and who is not rioting. Regardless of who is doing it, I think that there are better ways of effecting positive change.

[fides' Jack]

40 minutes ago, Peace said:

I would say that my opinion is based on my own personal experience living as a black person in the USA, my own personal interactions with people, and conclusions drawn from the sad racial history of the US, data and the like.

I'll give you an interesting antecedent. When I moved to Japan for about 5 years, many of my white American friends would complain day and night about how racist the Japanese were. To me, I hardly noticed any difference at all. In many respects I thought it was actually better. I think the difference was that in the USA, they were in the majority, but in Japan they were in the minority. You feel it a lot more when you are in the minority, which is why I think it came as a big shock to many of them.

 

40 minutes ago, Peace said:

That is what it sounded like to me.

I think one of the biggest problems in our world today is the perpetual preaching of victimization.  And it's never been as apparent as it is with identity politics. 

These days, with the grotesque attention payed to identity politics, everybody other than straight, white males are given some status of victimhood.

People who don't see themselves as victims usually end up not being victims.  That remains the case whether we're talking about victims of oppression from race, or from class, or from political attacks, or slander, or family disputes, or even just a disrespectful spouse.

 

Let me ask you something - you don't have to answer.  You went to college, right?  Where did you go and what did you major in?  How old were you, then?

[Anomaly]

2 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

 

These days, with the grotesque attention payed to identity politics, everybody other than straight, white males are given some status of victimhood.

Hold on there.  

As a straight, white male, I can claim victimhood from identity politics and mainstream bias hysteria.

[fides' Jack]

33 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Hold on there.  

As a straight, white male, I can claim victimhood from identity politics and mainstream bias hysteria.

Yes, but all of society would reject that claim.  

[Didacus]

4 hours ago, Peace said:

I support a good border, even perhaps with a wall or a gate too.

I ain't gonna try to prove it to you pal. If you want to make excuses for his behavior or try to explain it away, that is your business.

But from my standpoint, it would be like arguing with a child that 2 + 2 does not equal 4. I honestly think that anyone who does not understand it is an idiot or oblivious.

Wanting a wall or strong border is a legal issue - no a race issue.

[Peace]

1 hour ago, fides' Jack said:

 

I think one of the biggest problems in our world today is the perpetual preaching of victimization.  And it's never been as apparent as it is with identity politics. 

I agree that the preaching of victimization and identity politics are huge problems. I am not in the camp of folks who thinks it is a good idea to go outside with a picket in one's hand trying to get other people to love them, treat them better, or whatever it is that the picketers want. I think people should work hard to get what they want, and solve their own problems, for the most part. You have to get on with it because nobody is going to save you.

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These days, with the grotesque attention payed to identity politics, everybody other than straight, white males are given some status of victimhood.

Well, there are plenty of straight, white males, who give themselves victim status, if we are being realistic here. These folks go around complaining about how their job was given to someone because of affirmative action and so forth.

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People who don't see themselves as victims usually end up not being victims.  That remains the case whether we're talking about victims of oppression from race, or from class, or from political attacks, or slander, or family disputes, or even just a disrespectful spouse.

Everyone is a victim of something, whether you see yourself as one or not. Life is not fair for anyone. To me that is pretty irrelevant, honestly. You have to get on with it.

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Let me ask you something - you don't have to answer.  You went to college, right?  Where did you go and what did you major in?  How old were you, then?

I graduated around the year 2000. I went to Northwestern, and I majored in engineering.

31 minutes ago, Didacus said:

Wanting a wall or strong border is a legal issue - no a race issue.

I never said that it was. Obviously the "build the wall" campaign was about a lot more than just building a wall. It was about painting a particular group of foreign people as an enemy to be feared. It's not like its the first time in American history that we have seen it. We saw the same sort of demonization played out against Catholic immigrants in the US, with the No-Nothings and the Irish in particular, before they gained acceptance into the mainstream.

[fides' Jack]

10 minutes ago, Peace said:

I graduated around the year 2000. I went to Northwestern, and I majored in engineering.

Thanks for answering.  And, do you think that some of your current mindset regarding the political landscape was solidified during your time there?  I accept that at least involving race issues, you've had experiences that form your impressions your entire life.  (Thankfully, I have not had any of those experiences - I live in an area where race was never a big deal)

I would say, after the media (which includes TV news, online news networks, as well as social media like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc..., and includes entertainment from Hollywood), the public education system has been the most intrusive and detrimental part of our culture that has brainwashed people into leftism.  To your mind, how much of your ideology was formed at school and among friends of that age group vs at home before college years?  How much information about the current world do you get from social media?

I'm just curious about your own view on this, I won't ask more personal questions.

[Peace]

35 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Thanks for answering.  And, do you think that some of your current mindset regarding the political landscape was solidified during your time there?

I highly doubt it. Between class / studying and work, I did not have a whole lot of time left for much else during college. I was taking fluid mechanics and dynamics, not "critical race theory" or what have you.

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 I accept that at least involving race issues, you've had experiences that form your impressions your entire life.  (Thankfully, I have not had any of those experiences - I live in an area where race was never a big deal)

You live in Canada?

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I would say, after the media (which includes TV news, online news networks, as well as social media like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc..., and includes entertainment from Hollywood), the public education system has been the most intrusive and detrimental part of our culture that has brainwashed people into leftism. 

I am far from a leftist. I would call myself more of a Milton Friedman type libertarian, except that my Catholic faith informs me of the need for certain types of moral restraints on the free-market.

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To your mind, how much of your ideology was formed at school and among friends of that age group vs at home before college years? 

I would not say that school has much to do with it honestly. I would say that my beliefs are based on my personal experiences with people.

Let me ask you this. You seem to concede that it is possible for certain systems of beliefs or ways of viewing the world  of being instilled into people via institutions such as schools, media, etc. For example, you seem to suggest that this "victimhood" or "leftist" mentality has been instilled into many people through these mediums.

Now, if we say hypothetically that for hundreds of years those same institutions were explicitly racist, like having laws barring black people from voting, making it illegal to teach them to read, enslaving most of them, forcing them to attend segregated schools, barring them from eating in restaurants, making them sit in the back of the bus, barring them from jury service, serving as a witness at trial, and so forth, media like "Birth of a Nation" and blackface, minstrel shows, etc. should it really be all that much of a surprise if a few decades later after most of that was ended, the average person in the same society had deeply ingrained views of blacks being inferior?

Just some food for thought.

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How much information about the current world do you get from social media?

None. I have Linked-In. That's about it. I don't have Instaface and all of that jazz.

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I'm just curious about your own view on this, I won't ask more personal questions.

I don't mind. It's just a conversation. None of it is personal.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Peace

[fides' Jack]

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

You live in Canada?

Colorado, in the country.  But my parents never really talked about it, and by then the public elementary schools were very much anti-racism, from the earliest grades.

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

I was taking fluid mechanics and dynamics, not "critical race theory" or what have you.

I think it's so pervasive that you don't have to take a course dedicated to it to get the indoctrination.  But, I doubt they had courses on critical race theory in the year 2000.  Maybe I'm wrong...  My first college class was in 2000 (I think, it might've been '99), and I don't remember seeing anything like that. 

Plus, the fact that you went into an engineering direction likely shielded you from a lot of it.  Especially back then.

But I'm still trying to understand where your views came from.  My next question would have been, "Did you grow up in a big city?", but I already said I wouldn't ask more personal questions, so I won't ask that...   

15 minutes ago, Peace said:

Now, if we say hypothetically that for hundreds of years those same institutions were explicitly racist, like having laws barring black people from voting, making it illegal to teach them to read, enslaving most of them, forcing them to attend segregated schools, barring them from eating in restaurants, making them sit in the back of the bus, barring them from jury service, serving as a witness at trial, and so forth, media like "Birth of a Nation" and blackface, minstrel shows, etc. should it really be all that much of a surprise if a few decades later after most of that was ended, the average person in the same society had deeply ingrained views of blacks being inferior?

I get your point, but even during all of that, many, many people were opposed to it.  The most racist point of America came after slavery had already ended (officially, anyway), when the democrat party was pushing the idea that black people weren't even human.  Even Hitler denounced the American democrats as too debasing to black people.

But if you believe that argument you just made, you would have to see the entire world as racist, because that's been an issue since Adam and Eve were alive.  Certainly slavery has been around since then (maybe not overt racism).  Every single country has a history of slavery, and most countries today still have a fair amount of slavery.

It's probably true that, when fighting for change, the thing we're fighting against rears its ugly head the most when it realizes it's in danger.  And it became very ugly in the US, but that shows us also that it was in the US that the fight was strongest.  It was the freedoms that came with our country, and fighting to make ALL men free, that changed the cultural and social norms of the entire western world to see racism as evil.  It was the United States that made it possible.  If anything, history will remember the legacy of the United States as the country that defeated slavery.  And for a while, it looked like racist attitudes were on their way out the door, too.  The last 10 years have really turned that around, though.  Racism was less of an issue 30 years ago than it is today.  And I think the attitudes today are almost entirely due to leftist socialist/communist brainwashing.

[Peace]

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Colorado, in the country.  But my parents never really talked about it, and by then the public elementary schools were very much anti-racism, from the earliest grades.

That's cool.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I think it's so pervasive that you don't have to take a course dedicated to it to get the indoctrination. 

I think we can view white supremacy in much the same way. It's pretty pervasive in my opinion, but of course much, much improved from times past.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

But, I doubt they had courses on critical race theory in the year 2000.  Maybe I'm wrong...  My first college class was in 2000 (I think, it might've been '99), and I don't remember seeing anything like that. 

I wouldn't know. Mostly I was interested in getting a job that paid money so I would not have been looking for courses like that.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Plus, the fact that you went into an engineering direction likely shielded you from a lot of it.  Especially back then.

Maybe.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

But I'm still trying to understand where your views came from. 

I already explained it. You are just having trouble accepting it I think. You seem to have difficulty accepting that other people have experienced things that you have not personally witnessed. Dude, I got called the N-word in high-school. Frequently. But things are much improved now.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

My next question would have been, "Did you grow up in a big city?", but I already said I wouldn't ask more personal questions, so I won't ask that...   

A city of 500,000 give or take.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I get your point, but even during all of that, many, many people were opposed to it. 

Yeah, thankfully.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

The most racist point of America came after slavery had already ended (officially, anyway), when the democrat party was pushing the idea that black people weren't even human.  Even Hitler denounced the American democrats as too debasing to black people.

Well I dunno if it needs to be turned into a Dems versus Republicans who is more racist sort of debate. Both parties have been on the ugly side of history at various points I think.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

But if you believe that argument you just made, you would have to see the entire world as racist, because that's been an issue since Adam and Eve were alive.  Certainly slavery has been around since then (maybe not overt racism).  Every single country has a history of slavery, and most countries today still have a fair amount of slavery.

Nah, I would not say that. Certainly slavery goes back thousands of years in almost every society. What is unique about the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, I think, is that the trade became racialized. Thousands of years ago I don't think you had the notion that "Africans are particularly suited as slaves" because you had slaves of every race, from every society. It was more about say debt, or war back then I think. I think that if you look at the history of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade you will see that there was this problem of reconciling the enslavement of human beings with Christian ideals, the solution coming in the form of mentally reducing people of African descent into something less than human, in order to justify treating them in just that manner. Modern notions of race and racial superiority / inferiority seem to have arisen around that time. That's my take on the history at least.

13 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

It's probably true that, when fighting for change, the thing we're fighting against rears its ugly head the most when it realizes it's in danger.  And it became very ugly in the US, but that shows us also that it was in the US that the fight was strongest.  It was the freedoms that came with our country, and fighting to make ALL men free, that changed the cultural and social norms of the entire western world to see racism as evil.  It was the United States that made it possible.  If anything, history will remember the legacy of the United States as the country that defeated slavery.  And for a while, it looked like racist attitudes were on their way out the door, too.  The last 10 years have really turned that around, though.  Racism was less of an issue 30 years ago than it is today.  And I think the attitudes today are almost entirely due to leftist socialist/communist brainwashing.

 I think this is a bit of wishful thinking here. We certainly were not the first to abolish, and that had to come via the deaths of many thousands via war. I think we have to say that the UK was ahead of the US, as far as the abolition movement.

[fides' Jack]

1 hour ago, Peace said:

I think this is a bit of wishful thinking here. We certainly were not the first to abolish, and that had to come via the deaths of many thousands via war. I think we have to say that the UK was ahead of the US, as far as the abolition movement.

I agree with everything else you said.  I think we're actually largely on the same page, except for our current view of the world.  For this, I did not say that the US was the first to abolish slavery.  I said it was the freedoms that the US enjoyed that changed the culture of the west enough to make it possible to abolish slavery.  It's my understanding we were 3rd - UK was first, I think, and there was another country... maybe France?  I'm too lazy to google it.

But yeah, I agree, slavery was not always about race.  

And I agree it's not about Democrats vs Republicans.  I do think Republicans have the better history, but I also think Republicans today are almost entirely leftists now, too.

And I'll admit that it IS hard for me to understand the racial tensions that are out there.  I've had this conversation several times with my wife - she grew up in Atlanta and saw it first-hand.  But yet, she's not racist, and she's just as white as I am.  So... yeah.  I don't get it.  But I also don't see racism where other people do.  I do see a lot of the left calling people racist - most notably the president.  But I haven't seen any evidence of that (only lies about it), so I'll defend him from that attack.

I was just watching this, and I think it speaks to the heart of the issue: