Liberal Catholic Conspiracy Theory

[CatholicCrusader]

Then he would be a heretic.

However, he could not state that [i]ex Cathedra[/i] because then the Church would be fallible.

Edited July 8, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Yes it is, yes it's true, yadda yadda yadda... start at thread one.

You are simply wrong.[/quote]

Ironmonk, as I have said in many cases before, I am a very conservative man in the political sense, and absolutely orthodox in the Catholic sense. However, [i]you[/i] are wrong in this case. You can still be liberal and be a good catholic.

You yourself defined liberal as being an embrace of change, yet then you go on to say that the only changes that you seem to "count" are the bad ones like supporting abortion, homosexuality, etc. You have not addressed any of the points that I have made individually, nor have you done so with those points made by Good Friday.

You and I both know each other to be credible and orthodox defenders of the Church. At least do me the honor of addressing my points.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jul 8 2004, 01:47 AM'] [quote name='ironmonk']Yes it is, yes it's true, yadda yadda yadda... start at thread one.

You are simply wrong.[/quote]
This is the Debate Table. Do you intend to debate, or pontificate? If it's pontificate, I think you have your own website for that, don't you? [/quote]
"Start at thread one" covers the first few points you bring up.

I stopped reading after them due to time constraints.

Your points are illogical and you ignore many factors in your analysis. Like my definition of liberal.

Jeff,
Please reread what I wrote.


I mentioned that the basic definition of liberal means to change... but that is NOT what I call a liberal. The majority of what the liberals want in America goes against Catholic teaching.

I want to change a lot of things, but that does not make me a liberal.

Even their welfare (example Carter) goes against Catholic teaching in that it does not reduce dependancy.

To call oneself liberal [u][b]and [/b][/u]vote liberal 90% of the time is to go against Church teaching.

I stand behind my statements in this thread... I think some people here need to read them, and think about what I'm saying as a whole, not one or two lines.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[voiciblanche]

[quote name='BurkeFan' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:39 PM'] Edit: Girl altar servers, or, as Fr. Kellers calls them, girl altar-boys, I think are not a huge threat, since the Pope seems to approve. [/quote]
The problem is that these altar-girls are usually young, and therefore impressionable. When I was very small, I declared that I was going to start my own church so I could be a priest... And if you've got a ten or eleven year old girl who's an altar server, she could start thinking that the Church is "sexist" as so many women say, because women are (well, it's kinda "used to be") kept off of the altar. Many women leave the Church for this reason, and it's due to ignorance and lack of sensitivity or caution in these situations where girls are let to be altar servers and women are let to be EMs. -_-

[ironmonk]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jul 8 2004, 06:29 PM'] Good point... but don't worry, Ironmonk never lies. [/quote]
"[i]Maybe[/i]" you have an issue with lying, and that's why you don't believe it. I stated that I haven't lied in many years... and I plan on never lying again. My soul matters to me.

It's pretty easy not to commit adultery, lying is next to that in the 10 Commandments, meaning it's almost as bad as adultery... then why lie?

It is cowardly to lie.

There is never a need to lie.
There is no such thing as a white lie.
I will not even lie to my children about Santa... why would I lie about anything else?


[b]"He who mistrusts most should be trusted least." - Theognis[/b]


-ironmonk

[crusader1234]

Trust is a noble trait. Believing a person has lied not once in over 5 years isn't trust it is gullibility.

"There is one way to find out if a man is honest--ask him. If he says yes, you know he is crooked." --Groucho Marx

Great. We both have quotes that basically insult eachothers integrity.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jul 8 2004, 07:03 PM'] The problem is that these altar-girls are usually young, and therefore impressionable. When I was very small, I declared that I was going to start my own church so I could be a priest... And if you've got a ten or eleven year old girl who's an altar server, she could start thinking that the Church is "sexist" as so many women say, because women are (well, it's kinda "used to be") kept off of the altar. Many women leave the Church for this reason, and it's due to ignorance and lack of sensitivity or caution in these situations where girls are let to be altar servers and women are let to be EMs. -_- [/quote]
You'd make a terrible priest.


Priestess however.... Just don't go to the Anglican/Episcoplian Church.

I like your post. :D

[ironmonk]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jul 9 2004, 03:32 PM'] Trust is a noble trait. Believing a person has lied not once in over 5 years isn't trust it is gullibility.

"There is one way to find out if a man is honest--ask him. If he says yes, you know he is crooked." --Groucho Marx

Great. We both have quotes that basically insult eachothers integrity. [/quote]
"He who mistrusts most should be trusted least." - Theognis

"It is not the oath that makes us believe the man, but the man the oath." - Heraclitus

Since when is it wise to listen to entertainers for wisdom? Groucho Marx? I mean, really... maybe that's why the left is so off.

Not lying is an easy thing to do, if you tried it you would know it's believable that someone can indeed go at least 5 years without doing it.

Not being able to believe a person hasn't lied in at least 5 years just goes to show that one thinks it's impossible, which means they must lie a lot.

I would believe that the pope hasn't lied for easily 50 years. I would believe that Mother Theresa didn't lie for dozens of years. I would believe someone who has been defending the Church for so long and reading the bible since they were six years old that it could be very possible that they haven't lied in five years.

Why can't you believe it?


[b]Ecclesiastes 10:2[/b] The wise man's understanding turns him to his right; the fool's understanding turns him to his left.

Alas, I don't care if you believe me or not... those people that I do know, would easily believe it... but don't ask me... ask them.

I'm blunt and to the point... I'm not affraid of ruffling feathers... there is simply no need to lie, ever. If there is something I don't want to talk about, I change the subject or simply do not answer.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Mary's Knight, La]

*BLATANT THREAD HIJACK*

well not really just getting back to the original question

i don't agree with all of the ones you listed as being part of it but my answer is yes

i think it is a conspiracy but not on a necessarily human level cuz you will find many people who want changes but will say make the line here but no further.

each group *usually* wants only their particular change and agrees others shouldn't happen

e.g. we should have female priests but stay firm on abortion or vice versa

but it seems to be a concentrated effort in a way watch when one group does get smacked down how fast the others move in. looks like a classic war of attrition (sp?) which i think i remember reading some bible verse that says basically that's all the devil has left is a war of attrition he knows he can't win but he's going to make his defeat cost as much as it can.

unfortunately one of his weapons is ourselves we all have our own ideas of "the way things ought to be" and not surprisingly our individual ideas tend to make us one of the least bad people we know.

as has already been stated it's going to fail, and the forces behind it know this, they just want to take as many people and as many graces out of the church as they can

the antidote is to show people their own desire for sinfulness and how their "idea of how it ought to be" promotes this, then it's a lot easier for them to follow God's knowledge of how it ought to be it's not popular but it's a formula that seems to work really well in a lot of things "identify what's bad, cut it out, put God in His place" wow seems almost like a quick definition of Reconciliation a weird coincidence.... I think not!

[ladybug]

It's not a theory. It's a fact.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='voiciblanche' date='Jul 8 2004, 07:03 PM'] The problem is that these altar-girls are usually young, and therefore impressionable. When I was very small, I declared that I was going to start my own church so I could be a priest... And if you've got a ten or eleven year old girl who's an altar server, she could start thinking that the Church is "sexist" as so many women say, because women are (well, it's kinda "used to be") kept off of the altar. Many women leave the Church for this reason, and it's due to ignorance and lack of sensitivity or caution in these situations where girls are let to be altar servers and women are let to be EMs.  -_- [/quote]
I agree with most parts of your post; however, I do not believe that many girls think that the Church is sexist. In my CCE class, there are girls that range from cheerleaders to some that desire to live in a convent. All of them agree that the Priesthood is reserved for men only. Just look at the 12 Apostles. They are all men. I fully support a girl's right to serve at the altar though.

Edited July 13, 2004 by conservativecatholic

[catholicguy]

Girl altar boys?? [i]Conservative[/i] Catholic???

Edit: Also, the "I support a girl's (woman's) [b][i][u]right[/u][/i][/b]...", we know what stems from this (when choice is made to be the ultimate truth and not the action itself). N.B., girls have [b]no[/b] [i]right[/i] to serve at the altar.

Edited July 13, 2004 by catholicguy

[Good Friday]

[quote name='catholicguy']Edit: Also, the "I support a girl's (woman's) right...", we know what stems from this (when choice is made to be the ultimate truth and not the action itself). N.B., girls have no right to serve at the altar.[/quote]
[b]No one[/b] has a [i]right[/i] to serve at the altar. It's a privilege, not a right.

[catholicguy]

Exactly Well, I would argue that a cleric has the same right to serve as a baptized person has a right to Heaven. While, in his essence as a sinful creature, the cleric has no right to serve, by reason of his office (nothing short of ordination by God Himself), he has a right to serve. The same can be said of one who is baptized. Though he is a sinful creature by nature, one who is baptized can be said to have a right to Heaven insofar as he has been given sanctifying grace by God, and if he perseveres in this grace, he will be saved.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='catholicguy']While, in his essence as a sinful creature, the cleric has no right to serve, by reason of his office (nothing short of ordination by God Himself), he has a right to serve.[/quote]
I agree. I was referring to lay altar servers.