My Beefs With The Rcc

[phatcatholic]

icthus, if it would help, i would be willing to engage in a one-on-one, private debate w/ you here at phatmass on Rom 3:23 and its implications for or against the Immaculate Conception.

just let me know

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 05:05 PM'] Well, here goes.

1. All her apologists contradict each other (e.g. Peter Kreeft says that sola fide is materially correct, but not formally, whereas people on this website say "No, it's faith + works" or "We're saved by a salvation with works")

2. She makes up syncretistic lies not found in Scripture.

3. She has horribly mangled the Gospel.

Just so all of you know.... [/quote]
How easily some forget....


[url="http://www.ianpaisley.net"]http://www.ianpaisley.net[/url]

Please scroll to the article "Purgatory Pickpocket" then read my response.


Purgatory is proof that any church that does not teach it, is not the Church of Christ.

Purgatory was first taught THOUSANDS of years BEFORE Christ came.... by the Jews. The Catholic Church only gave it a name. [url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish"]http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish[/url]


Purgatory:
[b]Isaiah 6:7[/b] He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "[b]now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged[/b]."



God Bless,
ironmonk

[foundsheep]

[quote]Christ's righteousness and sayin that this mishmash of works-righteousness, combined with a few sacraments, will save us, rather than Faith in Christ and His cross. [/quote]

Matthew 19
"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. [b]Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [/b]

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 03:05 PM'] 1. All her apologists contradict each other (e.g. Peter Kreeft says that sola fide is materially correct, but not formally, whereas people on this website say "No, it's faith + works" or "We're saved by a salvation with works") [/quote]
I think Mr. Kreeft is simply engaging in a bit of ecumenical sophistry, trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.

[quote]3. She has horribly mangled the Gospel.[/quote]
See my invitation.

[phatcatholic]

icthus, where did you go?

[StColette]

lol I was asking the same question. Hope I didn't scare Icthus away with my long posts

[ICTHUS]

[quote]Romans 3:23 - "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

How do you interpret this? It cannot possibly mean that literally everyone has sinned. What about a child below the age of reason? How is it possible for a toddler to sin?[/quote]

Quite simply - he has original sin imputed to him.

[color=blue][u]12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because [b]all sinned[/b]-- [/u]13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, [b]even over those who did not sin by breaking a command[/b], as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. [/color]

As for how I interpret Rom 3:23, I interpret it as you suggested above,w ith one caveat. All, except for Jesus Christ, the righteous one, have sinned.

Also, the age of reason is a heresy.

Psalm 51:5

[color=blue]Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me. [/color]

Clearly David says that he was sinful from the time he was conceived, there was never a time when he was not.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]What is your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 and Matthew 12:32?[/quote]

[color=blue]18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[4] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[5] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. [/color]

My interpretation of the passage is this: The imprisoned spirits were not in any 'purgatory' but rather in Abrahams's bosom, what the Hebrews called Sheol, where the dead went before the coming of the Messiah.

[color=blue]He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. [/color]

I don't see how this supports purgatory. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age (pre-return of Christ) or in the age to come (post-return of Christ). I agree with this. What's your point?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 5 2004, 12:22 AM'] [b]Isaiah 6:7[/b] He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "[b]now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged[/b]."


[/quote]
How the heck does this support purgatory? It says our sins our purged - and they are purged by Jesus' atonement, when we are justified by faith!

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Cure of Ars' date='Jul 4 2004, 04:13 PM'] “and thus [u]all[/u] Israel will be saved,…” (Rom 11:26)

“I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with [u]all[/u] knowledge, and able to admonish one another.” (Rom 15:14)


Romans 3:23 - "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
[/quote]
[quote]“and thus [u]all[/u]  Israel will be saved,…”  (Rom 11:26)[/quote]

Of course, if you'd used this in context, you'd have seen that St. Paul is speaking of the NEW Israel, the Church. Of course, in this sense, ALL Israel will be saved!

[quote]“I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with [u]all[/u]  knowledge, and able to admonish one another.” (Rom 15:14)[/quote] 'All knowledge' is a figure of speech here, in my estimation. They evidently had a sound knowledge of the Scripture, which is sufficent to equip them for every good work, which in St. Paul's mind probably amounted to 'all' knowledge.

[quote]Did you know that Paul in Romans 3:23 is quoting Psalm 14 and in this context it is referring to those geniuses who say in their heart, “There is not God”. Unless Paul is quoting scripture out of context this is the context that he is using in Romans 3:23. [/quote] Since Rom 3:23 is one of the principle proof texts for original sin, do you want to say that only atheists have original sin?

[ICTHUS]

[quote]I think Mr. Kreeft is simply engaging in a bit of ecumenical sophistry, trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.[/quote] Which is exactly, it would seem, what the Pope did in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 12 2004, 07:57 PM'] How the heck does this support purgatory? It says our sins our purged - and they are purged by Jesus' atonement, when we are justified by faith! [/quote]
Read the links I posted and you'll learn how.


[url="http://www.ianpaisley.net"]http://www.ianpaisley.net[/url] <- I cover it fully.

Purgatory takes does not take away from what Jesus did.

[color=red] be nice [/color]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/last_things.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/last_things.asp[/url]


Purgatory means to purge bro.

You are letting people who delight and are proud of their division take you down a road that can only lead to atheism.

You really need to remember things you learn. Every attack they tell you can be easily refuted. Then when they're refuted they move on the next subject and you forget about the one you just covered. If you would remember them, you would see that they contradict themselves.

Put your money where your mouth is... take the challenge that I have posted on the board if they are so right.... those that believe things that were not taught until 1517 AD. Those that think that the Church established by Christ lost it's way... that would mean that there is no God.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited July 13, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Hananiah]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 12 2004, 06:07 PM'] Which is exactly, it would seem, what the Pope did in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. [/quote]
Agreed. By the way, did you see my debate challenge? It's a bit buried by now, but I'll bump it for you.

[conservativecatholic]

[color=blue][b]
11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.

12 Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:

13 Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Corinthians 3:11-15[/b][/color]

It seems to me that Purgatory is explained right here before your eyes. In Corinthians, Paul is speaking about the the suffering souls and not the testing of works.

[Winchester]

So one of your beeves with the Catholic church is that her apologists (not, so far as I know, an order in our Church) contradict each other?

Now, I'm going to skip the torso in favor of the achille's heel: how is this a beef with the Church, that her members in their personal explanations contradict each other? Is this unique to the Catholic plebeian?