My Beefs With The Rcc

[ICTHUS]

Well, here goes.

1. All her apologists contradict each other (e.g. Peter Kreeft says that sola fide is materially correct, but not formally, whereas people on this website say "No, it's faith + works" or "We're saved by a salvation with works")

2. She makes up syncretistic lies not found in Scripture.

3. She has horribly mangled the Gospel.

Just so all of you know....

[Quietfire]

[quote]Well, here goes.

1. All her apologists contradict each other (e.g. Peter Kreeft says that sola fide is materially correct, but not formally, whereas people on this website say "No, it's faith + works" or "We're saved by a salvation with works")

2. She makes up syncretistic lies not found in Scripture.

3. She has horribly mangled the Gospel.

Just so all of you know....[/quote]

Would you care to show some specifics to go along with your accusations.



Peace :peace:

[StColette]

I would also like more specifics

God Bless,
Jennie

[dUSt]

My beefs with [b]Protestantism:[/b]
1. All the Protestant apologists contradict eachother
2. It makes up lies not found in Scripture
3. It has horribly mangled the Gospel

My beefs with [b]Christianity:[/b]
1. All the Christian apologists contradict eachother
2. It makes up lies not found in Scripture
3. It has horribly mangled the Gospel

My beefs with people who [b]believe in God:[/b]
1. All the apologists contradict eachother
2. They make up lies not found in Scripture
3. They have horribly mangled the Gospel

Doesn't get us very far huh? Your post can pretty much apply to everyone. What was the point? I agree, [b]specifics would be nice.[/b] Pretty much mandatory if you'd like to actually participate in a constructive dialogue.

[ICTHUS]

I meant: Syncretistic lies such as the Immaculate Conception, flatly contradicted by Romans 3:23, and purgatory.

What I meant by saying that Rome has horribly mangled the Gospel is that she has mixed our works with Christ's righteousness and sayin that this mishmash of works-righteousness, combined with a few sacraments, will save us, rather than Faith in Christ and His cross.

[dUSt]

[quote]I meant: Syncretistic lies such as the Immaculate Conception, flatly contradicted by Romans 3:23, and purgatory. [/quote]

Romans 3:23 - "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

How do you interpret this? It cannot possibly mean that literally everyone has sinned. What about a child below the age of reason? How is it possible for a toddler to sin?

The correct interpretation of this verse might be that the mass of mankind has sinned, exluding special cases such as small children and of course, Mary.

[quote]What I meant by saying that Rome has horribly mangled the Gospel is that she has mixed our works with Christ's righteousness and sayin that this mishmash of works-righteousness, combined with a few sacraments, will save us, rather than Faith in Christ and His cross.[/quote]
I consider this false witness. You know that the Church teaches that faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us, so by implying that the Church does [b]not[/b] teach this makes me question your credibility.

Also, what do you mean by "faith in His cross"? Are you now worshipping two Gods? Jesus Christ and an inanimate object, the cross?

[Cure of Ars]

“and thus [u]all[/u] Israel will be saved,…” (Rom 11:26)

“I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with [u]all[/u] knowledge, and able to admonish one another.” (Rom 15:14)

So all does not always mean all, there can be exceptions.

Romans 3:23 - "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Did you know that Paul in Romans 3:23 is quoting Psalm 14 and in this context it is referring to those geniuses who say in their heart, “There is not God”. Unless Paul is quoting scripture out of context this is the context that he is using in Romans 3:23.

[dUSt]

[quote]...and purgatory[/quote]

What is your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 and Matthew 12:32?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 04:34 PM'] I meant: Syncretistic lies such as the Immaculate Conception, flatly contradicted by Romans 3:23, and purgatory.

What I meant by saying that Rome has horribly mangled the Gospel is that she has mixed our works with Christ's righteousness and sayin that this mishmash of works-righteousness, combined with a few sacraments, will save us, rather than Faith in Christ and His cross. [/quote]
1. The Immaculate Conception

The Immaculate Conception is provided for richly in scripture, including the greeting of an angel, "Hail, Full of Grace!" There are two key things to remember here. The first is that Mary is called "full of grace," which implies that she has no stain of sin on her (immaculata is Latin for "without stain"). The second is that an angel, which is higher than a human ("you have made him [man] little less than an angel"). Furthermore, we see Mary as a reflection of the Ark of the Covenant, which was to be made of pure gold. The stage was set for Mary to be sinless. Furthermore, Mary's response to the angel, "yes," is a resounding negation of Eve's "no." It seems only logical that for Mary to make this antithesis, she would have to have the same conditions as Eve. She would have to be created as a sinless woman. As for the arguments against Mary, they include most prominently Romans 3:23. However, the "all" in this verse is, in the original Koine Greek, the word "panta" ("παντα"), which can mean "all, every, each, any." The word is an general inclusive used to show magnitude, not to be specific in quantity. It is certain that in the English language I could say that all people have hearts. It's unlikely that anyone would call me on it. People have hearts, and "all" in this case testifies to a general standard. But there are people who do not have hearts. There are people who have artificial substitutes for hearts.

2. Purgatory

Purgatory, being supported most abundantly by the Second Book of Maccabees, a book removed by the Protestant Reformation, has other support in the Bible. The Book of Revelation, for instance, says that "nothing unclean shall enter" Heaven. To certain fundamentalists, I suppose this is not a challenge, since their theology tells them that they cannot sin after being saved (in which case they should read John 15: 5-6, Romans 11: 22-23, and 1 Corinthians 15: 1-2). To anyone else, however, this poses a threat. Those who die with sin on their souls either go to hell or go to purgatory. But doesn't it make sense that those who died such a death would have a period of final purification before being allowed into Heaven? After all, our God is a merciful God. Purgatory, against common misunderstanding, is not a second chance. If you've gotten to purgatory, there is not more choice to make...you're on the way to heaven. A second chance implies the ability to change one's mind. Furthermore, Matthew 12:32 alludes to purgatory, as do Hebrews 12:23.

3. Faith and Works

The Church declares that works and faith are tied together. Faith and works are two separate entities, yes, but they are always found together, because one who has faith will be so compelled by that faith as to do works. Works are the manifestation of faith. Therefore, one who does not do works can be said not to have faith, which makes sense with the Scriptures and binds the writings of Paul and James together so that both make sense with each other.

[cmotherofpirl]

wrong spot

Edited July 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Rebirth flame]

hello ICTHUS!

what's this about purgatory being made up? It is [i]clearly[/i] present all throughout scriptures - Old [i]and[/i] new testament. We all know, this is common knowledge, that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. We see that from Rev 21:27. To say that there is no purgatory means one of three things: that humans don't sin, that we are [i]constantly[/i] being cleansed of our sins, or that there are a heck of alot of people in hell!

But, we know that purgatory exists because in the Bible, we see several verses that tell us of it's existance. In the Old Testament, in the book of 2 Maccabees 12:44-46, we see that people are atoned for the dead to free the dead from their sin.

Maybe, however, you do not find Maccabees divinely inspired, which would be a shame. but, nonetheless, there are other references, and one of the best is found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Paul tells us that first we must build a foundation on Christ, cuz nothing else will hold. Then, after we have made that foundation, all that we have built upon this foundation will be tested by fire on [i]the Day[/i] (which means the day of judgment). Our building materials can consist of Gold, Silver, precious metals, wood, hay, or straw. Now, obviously, in a fire, the wood, hay, and straw (symbolic of the bad works, or sins, we've comitted) will just sizzle up and blow away. But the Gold, Silver and other precious metals (symbolic of all the good we have done throughout our lifetime) will be left on the foundation! The wage we recieve if our works still stand is heaven. If our works, for the most part, burn away, then we shall have punishment, but it will be for purification, and we still shall be saved.

What is there to purify us? obviously, hell is eternal punishment: once your there, you can't get back. Heaven is a place of complete Bliss: there'd never be any punishment there... This place purgatory must exist, because there is no other place to go for purification.

[Rebirth flame]

whoops... i took too long to type... raphael beat me to it......

oh well... i hope i was of some help...

[Justified Saint]

Flatly contradicting?

Would you mean like faith alone and James 2:24?

[StColette]

I through something together on Purgatory as quick as I could so here goes lol

Christ's suffering and sacrafice for us is not lessened by the perfection of a soul in purgatory. Purgatory is not a second chance at being saved it is a cleansing of sin. If I were to die with no major sins, but I did have lesser sins upon my soul, and as I stood to be judged I would be taken to Purgatory, for as in Revelation says:

Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

I have been baptism but as any human I still sin and still must ask forgiveness for these sins so that I may enter the Kingdom of God. But if my soul is unclean with even the smallest of sin I would not be allowed to enter, for nothing unclean enters Heaven.

Other Verses that support Purgatory and the need for purging of sins.

2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

15 Thou knowest this, that all they who are in Asia are turned away from me: of whom are Phigellus and Hermogenes.
16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain:
17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.


1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

14 And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us.
15 And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him.
16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.
17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.


1 Corinthians 3:13-15: "Each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work, which any man has built on the foundation, survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."


(2 Macc. 12:45).

"It was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin"

2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Edited July 4, 2004 by StColette

[StColette]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 03:34 PM'] What I meant by saying that Rome has horribly mangled the Gospel is that she has mixed our works with Christ's righteousness and sayin that this mishmash of works-righteousness, combined with a few sacraments, will save us, rather than Faith in Christ and His cross. [/quote]
Verses Concerning Sola fide

James 2:14-26

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works,my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.


Phil 2:12-15

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations:

15 That you may be blameless and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation: among whom you shine as lights in the world.

2 Cor 5:10

10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

Rom 2:6-10, 13

5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.
9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil: of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
10 But glory and honour and peace to every one that worketh good: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Mt 25:32-46

32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Gal 6:6-10

6 And let him that is instructed in the word communicate to him that instructeth him, in all good things.
7 Be not deceived: God is not mocked.
8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.
9 And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.
10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Rev 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Catholic Catechism

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead": when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -- a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."


God Bless,
Jennie

Edited July 5, 2004 by StColette