Where did everyone go?

[Anomaly]

On 8/24/2020 at 7:04 PM, cutenickname said:

I am not going to get very far into why I left the Church, suffice it to say that I fundamentally disagree with several moral teachings and the political orientation of most of the conservative Catholic lay people I knew back in the day. I have never had any serious doubt that Jesus took flesh from a Virgin, died and was raised for my sins, and now I get to belong to this cantankerous and quarrelsome body of Christians working out their salvation in fear and trembling; the Catholic Church just increasingly became an institution that I felt was hampering my relationship with God and with other Christians, including Catholics, ironically. My understandings are nearly all Catholic understandings. A different kind of brain and I could've just stayed on as a cafeteria Catholic, like most of my large, loud, and poorly catechised latino family.

That was definitely my experience. My whole family is Catholic, but very lax and lazy. The teenage me of 2002/3 had become deeply convinced of Christ and deeply committed to theology, the Bible, etc. This place really deeply grounded me in Christian fellowship and in Christ Himself. I will forever be grateful to it for that.

It’s weird that the liberal leanings of priests I found disconcerting.   I’m atheist because of theological reasons.   It’s tough because I like and respect the Church and most of my family are practicing Catholics.  I’ve found Catholics to be fundamentally respectful, even if they disagree.   Until recently, I felt very comfortable attending mass regularly as a nonbeliever. 

[chrysostom]

3 hours ago, Anomaly said:

Until recently, I felt very comfortable attending mass regularly as a nonbeliever. 

What changed? If I may ask, don't want to pry where it isn't wanted.

[Anomaly]

6 hours ago, chrysostom said:

What changed? If I may ask, don't want to pry where it isn't wanted.

Covid-19. It’s a significant issue for the Catholic I would attend with.

 I’m a little surprised that isn’t discussed more here.   I’m curious on what it’s like.   

Social distancing in church.  Wearing a mask.   No greetings at beginning of mass.  No holding hands during Our Father.  No kiss of peace.   Are masses crowded? Mind you, I live in Florida.   Covid is an issue. 

[cutenickname]

10 hours ago, Anomaly said:

It’s weird that the liberal leanings of priests I found disconcerting.   I’m atheist because of theological reasons.   It’s tough because I like and respect the Church and most of my family are practicing Catholics.  I’ve found Catholics to be fundamentally respectful, even if they disagree.   Until recently, I felt very comfortable attending mass regularly as a nonbeliever. 

I am curious as to whether you mean doctrinal liberalism or political liberalism. No one could ever accuse me of being doctrinally liberal; but I have no time for fascists or for culture warring and in my experience it seems as if the American Church has a lot of time for both.

As to whether or not Catholics are fundamentally respectful, I'd suppose on who it is who is to be respected and who it is that is to be doing the respecting. I am a gay Afrolatino (Afro-Cuban and Afro-Dominican) grew up in the South Bronx in a Dominican/Puerto Rican neighborhood; until 2010-2011 it was almost entirely Catholic and still is majority Catholic. I never felt particularly disrespected by these people or unwelcome in the parish I grew up in, even though Catholicism there is very tribal and traditional (though not in the sense of being well-formed). I did however find middle-class white Catholicism as practiced by the kind of people who would describe themselves as orthodox or conservative intolerable and full of insult, injury, and random lay persons feeling that their Fox News/EWTN formed faith allowed them to go around excommunicating people, calling them abusive names, and imagining that everyone who disagreed with them was blinded by sin and Satan.

This was my experience. When I met my husband and when my children came I knew I had to either move into a theologically liberal parish (some weird place where they use female pronouns for God and don't speak of what Christ did on the Cross) or move on to a form of Christianity that actually matched my beliefs and convictions.

 

I found that in the Anglican Communion. And a mainstream boring Anglo-Catholic. Though too "Romish" by half in the opinions of some. lol

[cutenickname]

Typo: I'd suppose it depends on who...

Typo: I am a mainstream...

@dUSt still doesn't understand why you should be able to edit posts. Almost twenty years of me making typos under like 3 accounts and unable to correct them. Tsk tsk.

[Anomaly]

My Catholic experiences may well be a black swan.  My family is both extremely liberal Democrat and conservative Republican.  Straight and otherwise.   Multicultural, multiracial, multinational...   And no single faction has a monopoly on being a jerk at times.  But mostly Catholic, and all Family.  It’s natural for us to find the good and love people you disagree strongly with.   I believe it’s our shared Catholic philosophy that facilitates us building the diverse family we are.  You typically find what you’re looking for, so always question your queries.  

[Ash Wednesday]

I've had a carp load of freelance this year in addition to my job. Plus life.

I've never left the Church, and I will die a Catholic. But I would be lying if there aren't times my spiritual life gets dry as a bone. That comes and goes though. Lately it's gotten dry again. I think lately the tank has started to get especially empty enduring the pandemic and I've started looking into getting back to Mass again, and boy I could sure use a good confession, even though our bishops did suspend things for a while and we are dispensation still -- allowed to stay home for safety reasons for now in England and Wales. It's still complicated, though, only a few are still allowed in church at a time locally and you have to register via email. I've just started returning to an office so I'm working my way back up to being around people again and just checking the news to make sure things are still trending down in my area.

It's really hard for it to be spiritually sustainable without the sacraments. It makes me genuinely feel for Catholics around the world that have very little access to the sacraments on a regular basis, and have to worry about persecution and violence, to boot.

I'm still in touch with a lot of the old school phatmassers on FB/twitter/instagram. Catholic twitter is a hotbed but I tried it and it didn't work out. The lack of charity and way some of those people address each other, clergy, and the pope is abhorrent and it was too toxic of a place for me to stay. 

[chrysostom]

4 hours ago, Anomaly said:

Covid-19. It’s a significant issue for the Catholic I would attend with.

 I’m a little surprised that isn’t discussed more here.   I’m curious on what it’s like.   

Social distancing in church.  Wearing a mask.   No greetings at beginning of mass.  No holding hands during Our Father.  No kiss of peace.   Are masses crowded? Mind you, I live in Florida.   Covid is an issue. 

All of that minus the mask bit I am temperamentally indifferent to. At some churches they will not distribute on the tongue - I asked beforehand - and as I personally don't receive on the hand have had to go without on those rare occasions.

Masses are not crowded where I go regularly, perhaps two thirds of pre-virus levels. They have also doubled Masses up - one in the school hall at the same time as the one in the church - so between the two, people are plenty spaced out.

[Jaime]

Jasjis was one of my favorite apologists here.  I hope you take it up again

[cutenickname]

Jaime!

Jaime, I forgot that you existed, but I remember the avatar. Blessings!

Ash Wednesday!

Christian life without the sacraments is a tough road; but while I am in my covid desert, I have doubled down on prayer and scripture. I am still a bit dry, but there are signs of rain.

[Jaime]

1 hour ago, cutenickname said:

Jaime!

Jaime, I forgot that you existed, but I remember the avatar. Blessings!

You sound like my wife some days 

[nikita92]

Yeah! Where did everyone go? 

     I first joined Phatmass in 2012. Mostly for the Vocation station.

         From my perspective, it has changed some what as well.  

    There are still a few regulars members from back that are still active.   And for obvious reasons, a lot are no longer.

    I do miss the long timers, and all the discernment journeys.

I think just about every topic concerning religious life has been discussed, dissected and debated etc. 

Years later....it's interesting to see, how some of those same topics are brought up (again) by new members. 

I noticed that the topics that are now listed in the VS haven't had any new ones added in quite some time. 

In any case..my life has changed as has my age..and I am grateful to have discovered VS when I did. It has been a great learning experience for me. Now I check in way less than I use to. It just not the same as it was. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by nikita92

[Ash Wednesday]

22 hours ago, Anomaly said:

Covid-19. It’s a significant issue for the Catholic I would attend with.

 I’m a little surprised that isn’t discussed more here.   I’m curious on what it’s like.   

Social distancing in church.  Wearing a mask.   No greetings at beginning of mass.  No holding hands during Our Father.  No kiss of peace.   Are masses crowded? Mind you, I live in Florida.   Covid is an issue. 

The last time I was at Mass prior to lockdowns, there was a large dispenser of hand sanitizer at the door. No holy water. No kiss of peace. Generally communion in the hand though the priest did recognize that some Catholics really did not want to do that so he allowed anyone on the tongue to receive very last. 

Right now I think lots of spacing out of people or families since only like 40-60 are allowed per mass locally, and masks are required except when receiving communion.  My husband hasn't wanted me going to mass, now that I've been back in the office without incident for the past 2 weeks I'm hoping I can convince him to stop worrying so much.

The British tend to be more reserved about liturgical music and tone in general -- they never hold their hands during the Our Father and would probably consider it "sentimental tosh!"

12 hours ago, cutenickname said:

Jaime!

Jaime, I forgot that you existed, but I remember the avatar. Blessings!

Ash Wednesday!

Christian life without the sacraments is a tough road; but while I am in my covid desert, I have doubled down on prayer and scripture. I am still a bit dry, but there are signs of rain.

What was your previous username?

Probably when you were here last I was likely still living in the US but have since moved to the UK.

[MIKolbe]

you people are old.

[chrysostom]

On 8/29/2020 at 6:27 AM, Ash Wednesday said:

The last time I was at Mass prior to lockdowns, there was a large dispenser of hand sanitizer at the door. No holy water. No kiss of peace. Generally communion in the hand though the priest did recognize that some Catholics really did not want to do that so he allowed anyone on the tongue to receive very last. 

At Mass today, this is what the priest did too. After I received he immediately put sanitiser on his hands and rubbed his hands with a paper towel which was thrown into a waiting rubbish bin.

Was not expecting that last bit...still a bit shaken. Not a church I go to regularly.

Edited August 31, 2020 by chrysostom