Increasing Anti-Catholicism

[Luigi]

1. https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/12/world/hagia-sophia-mosque-pope-francis/index.html

 

[Anastasia]

The term “anti-Catholicism” is incorrect in an application to Hagia Sophia and even more so – if one knows its history it can be perceived as offensive to the Eastern Orthodox. Here is why.

First of all, Hagia Sophia to us is the same as the Basilica of St Peter in Rome to the Roman Catholics. It was the “number one” Church of Byzantium and it remained such regardless its conversion to the museum. The residence of the Ecumenical Patriarch, “the first by honor among equal” is in Constantinople. So, the spiritual center of the eastern Orthodoxy has been always there.

Second, the Church of Hagia Sophia was built by emperor Justinian in 6th c. and so it, technically speaking, just “a Christian basilica” – not Catholic and not Orthodox. The Schism broke Christianity into Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, with Constantinople and Rome as their centers. Roman Catholics overtook Constantinople briefly in 13c. and, by the way, severely damaged Hagia Sophia and looted together with many other churches – something that Orthodox find difficult to forget. The church was repaired after the Orthodox took the city back.

Hence please do not call the conversion of Hagia Sophia into the mosque “anti-Catholic”. Being an Orthodox I cannot call anti-Orthodox either. It is purely anti-Christian.

As for the Pope I would say it is a bit too late to pray and cry. He and other Christians had a time to protest against the coming conversation which has been discussed for months. Everyone failed – Orthodox as well and it is a tragedy which only Eastern Orthodox can appreciate fully. We lost our proto-church, the symbol of Byzantium, the kernel of our liturgical arts and culture. The sublime mosaic of Christ Pantocrator there is, in my opinion, is the best after the Sinai icon of Christ Pantocrator (thank God I have been there twice and was able to spend many hours before it).

[Luigi]

Anastasia - point taken.  

But it still fits into an emerging pattern of intolerance that I think members of the Pham will want to be aware of. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Luigi

[Luigi]

2. certain "activists" are "demanding" that the nae of St. Louis City be changed and that the statue of ST. Louis be removed from its prominent position. 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/st-louis-protesters-future-statue-to-citys-namesake

3. San Gabriel Mission burns down just before its 250th anniversary. There's no proof yet that it was arson, but arson is being investigated since this mission was founded by Junipero Serra. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/12/us/san-gabriel-mission-fire-trnd/index.html

4. Statues of Junipero Serra have been toppled in Sacramento 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/12/us/san-gabriel-mission-fire-trnd/index.html

followed by topplings in San Francisco and Los Angeles

https://religionnews.com/2020/06/23/california-bishops-say-protesters-failed-the-test-of-history-in-toppling-junipero-serra-statues/

[Anastasia]

Luigi, I disagree with you.

What happened in the US is certain people look for "resist" statements of various people or establishments and either attempt to destroy them or demand to remove them, on the grounds of them being "offensive" to them. They do not convert them into pagan temples. Is it strictly anti-Catholic? - I doubt because they do not vandalize all Catholic artifacts, they discriminate - but since it is about Catholic churches and Catholic Saints you title is OK, technically speaking. 

In a case of Hagia Sophia it is the Eastern Orthodox Church being converted to Mosque. This action can be call anti-Orthodox or anti-Christian but it cannot be called anti-Catholic. And I grantee you that many Orthodox would chock with your title. We read it as you imply, because of the Roman Catholic Crusades took Constantinople for some time, you consider it to be Catholic. It is not.

I would not have a problem with your title if you put fist your links to the vandalism in the US and then later mentioned that "look, they took the church away form the Orthodox as well". But you took the Orthodox Church and effectively made it Roman Catholic. I do not know whether you will decide to change the title and call it simply "Christian" but I am offended with what I see, especially because for me and and for us it is not just "one of the churches". It is Orthodoxy itself.

I will give an example. To place Hagia Sophia under “anti-Catholic” is the same as the Orthodox newspaper would publish “Another attack on the Eastern Orthodoxy: The Basilica of St Peter in Rome was converted into a mosque”. I think I did not need to write all the above, this example would be would enough.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Anastasia

[Anomaly]

Hagia Sophia was converted to a mosque in 1453, after the fall of Constantinople.  In 1935, it was changed to a museum.  

It was “Roman Catholic” for less than 40 years after Crusaders captured Constantinople and ransacked it in 1204.

[Luigi]

Anastasia: 

You said, "I would not have a problem with your title if you put fist your links to the vandalism in the US and then later mentioned that "look, they took the church away form the Orthodox as well". But you took the Orthodox Church and effectively made it Roman Catholic. I do not know whether you will decide to change the title and call it simply "Christian" but I am offended with what I see, especially because for me and and for us it is not just "one of the churches". It is Orthodoxy itself."

Actually, I posted all four stories at the same time, but I messed up somehow and only the story about Haggia Sophia was actually posted. Typically, I organize everything chronologically, but it didn't work this time. 

And I did not mean to claim that Haggia Sophia ia ROMAN Catholic church. But here in my city, the Catholics and the Orthodox are on very friendly terms, and I consider them - as well as the Maronites, the Copts, and others - under the same large umbrella. 

As to the title, I don't think I can change the title now, although an administrator might be able to. I'd be happy to take the topic down, or split it into two separate topics, but I don't have the ability to do that. 

I do accept your perspective, and I apologize that I offended you. There's nothing more I can do.  

Edited July 14, 2020 by Luigi

[Aloysius]

Perhaps it should have just read 'anti-Christian' bias growing?  In theory, when the Hagia Sophia was built, the "Catholic Church" was united, in the sense of the "Universal Church", so in theory since it's not saying anti-roman-catholic bias, maybe it's ok on the technicality (though of course we all know the colloquial shorthand 'catholic' today refers to the Western/Roman Church compared to the 'Orthodox' Churches), in that sense if the role was changed as Anastasia says and we were talking about this situation surrounding St. Peter's Basilica, you could actually say "anti-orthodox" as long as you didn't say "anti-eastern orthodox", since we would also consider our church 'orthodox' in the sense of right worship.  Well, that's getting a bit semantic, it doesn't seem Luigi meant to refer to the short period of the crusaders' sack of constantinople when he said 'anti-Catholic' bias.  Anyway, I find it hard to particularly connect all these situations, they're very different contexts I think.

The Hagia Sophia thing is sad, and a tragedy, but from a Christian perspective, the Hagia Sophia being a museum even is part of the tragedy, but it's a very old tragedy we've basically had to come to historical terms with a long time ago.  This tragedy happened centuries upon centuries ago, the loss of Byzantium and the loss of the Hagia Sophia.  The Museum option was a nice compromise for a while, but it still wasn't a site of the Divine Liturgy as it was intended to be, so while this may be a bit of an ecumenical and inter-religious dialogue set-back, but from the Christian perspective the tragedy is that the Christian Byzantine Empire is no more.  I think all Christians and most secular people would prefer it stay as a museum on the logic of it being an artistic heritage for mankind, but one can hardly be surprised--it was converted to a mosque the way mosques in Cordoba were converted to Cathedrals, the way pagan temples in Rome were converted to Christian Basilicas once upon a time, history is full of such things, and the real tragedy from the Christian perspective is not that the building is no longer a museum, but that the gospel has not penetrated the hearts of people there enough for it to be host to the Liturgy for which it was built. 

anyway I agree that these attacks on St Junipero Serra and St Louis are sad.  but a bit different of a situation.  there's a zero sum game of polarization and trying to remake value systems that's being played now and it's caught these things in its the crossfire (compared to the kind of Islamic revivalism at the heart of the Hagia Sophia thing).  But ultimately, we can keep in mind the same perspective--Christ didn't say "go, therefore, and get cities named after saints"--the bigger tragedy is that the love of the gospel hasn't been evangelized well enough and society is convulsing in pangs of vicious anger, drowning out any sense of Christ's love that's the only real answer.  Anyway, best thing you can do is pray and hope.  Let's hope things get better.

[Anastasia]

Luigi,

I accept your apologies. As for other things...

13 hours ago, Luigi said:

And I did not mean to claim that Haggia Sophia ia ROMAN Catholic church. But here in my city, the Catholics and the Orthodox are on very friendly terms, and I consider them - as well as the Maronites, the Copts, and others - under the same large umbrella. 

Let me first reassure you that I am commenting as an Orthodox but also as someone who is worshiping with Roman Catholics and even affiliated with the Carmelite Order (this quite unthinkable for most Orthodox) - this is a kind of a disclaimer. "A large umbrella" is "Christianity", not "Catholic". Perhaps Maronites can be call Catholics but Orthodox and Copts definitely cannot. Hence to use "Catholic" as a large umbrella is simply incorrect.

While living in the West I observed many misconceptions about Orthodoxy. Many Catholics do not even know what it is. Some think "it is Greek" while One Orthodox Church is made with fifteen (I think) autocephalous Churches. Many Roman Catholics hold the view we are schismatic, some - "heretics". Same goes for Orthodox re: Roman Catholics. But, I am sorry to say, not so infrequently I would speak to a Roman Catholic who by saying "Catholic" means "Christian"; he was Catholic = Christian and non-Catholics were... something else. I reassure you that if you approach an Orthodox in your city and ask him or her if they are Catholic they will answer "no, I am Orthodox". But if you are him or her "Are you Christian?" they will say "Yes!" and the Orthodoxy will come second after being a Christian.

Leaving all that aside the objective truth is that we are Christians and also Catholic and Orthodox and when the vandalism takes a place it is against the Church of Christ, against Christianity - unless it is an attack of an Orthodox on a Catholic and vice versa. This is why your title which place the Orthodox major church and a symbol of Byzantium under an umbrella of "anti-Catholicism" is incorrect.

[Anastasia]

8 hours ago, Aloysius said:

we were talking about this situation surrounding St. Peter's Basilica, you could actually say "anti-orthodox" as long as you didn't say "anti-eastern orthodox", since we would also consider our church 'orthodox' in the sense of right worship. 

The problem is that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do not refer to themselves as such but as "Catholic" and "Orthodox" yet everyone understand what we mean, i.e. belonging to the Roman Catholic or the Eastern Orthodox Church. So, it would not work. We have the same Creed so we also believe in the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church yet no one would think about the title of this topic as a reference to the Orthodox as "Catholic". However, it is just an exercise in semantics as you said.

8 hours ago, Aloysius said:

The Hagia Sophia thing is sad, and a tragedy, but from a Christian perspective, the Hagia Sophia being a museum even is part of the tragedy, but it's a very old tragedy we've basically had to come to historical terms with a long time ago.  This tragedy happened centuries upon centuries ago, the loss of Byzantium and the loss of the Hagia Sophia. 

I do not think I can explain why it is not experienced that way by an Eastern Orthodox. Byzantium did not die, it was continuing in our churches all over the world, via our tradition which includes liturgical arts. Museum is not an acting church of course yet it cannot be compared with making it into a mosque. As I said I have visited the place and it was alive. It was the living church although there was no Liturgy. I will simply conclude with what I wrote before:

We lost our proto-church, the symbol of Byzantium, the kernel of our liturgical arts and culture. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Anastasia

[Aloysius]

I have visited it as a museum as well, and there is no doubt that there is something special there in being able to visit it (as I understand it tourists will still be allowed to visit except during their prayer times when they will cover the Christian mosaics with a curtain).  But as a Church building, we all lost it a long long time ago, that was just a ghost of its former self--was nice to be able to see it, and I certainly agree the museum compromise was a nice one, but the real Church is not made up of buildings.  As the proto-Church it was lost when it was first made into a mosque centuries ago.  The liturgy, where, as you say, Byzantium remained alive, is what really matters here.

Anyway, don't get me wrong.  I definitely wish Turkey wouldn't do this.  But what can one do?--the real, deeper wish is that Turkey had the gospel in their hearts and worshiped Our Lord with True Worship in the Hagia Sophia, all other wishes for how that building be treated pale in comparison to that wish because that's the wish of the mandate of Our Lord to go make disciples out of all nations.

Actually when I was in Istanbul I stumbled quite by accident on the location of St. George's Cathedral (Seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch today).  It was fascinating and humbling, such a smaller more unassuming place and yet for all purposes it is what Hagia Sophia ought to have been in the sense of what it was built to be.

[Aloysius]

here's a beautiful lamentation for the fall of Constantinople that seems particularly relevant:

 

 

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[Anastasia]

Aloysius

Thank you, I have never heard it and did not know the singer. Beautiful!

On 7/15/2020 at 9:27 PM, Aloysius said:

Actually when I was in Istanbul I stumbled quite by accident on the location of St. George's Cathedral (Seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch today).  It was fascinating and humbling, such a smaller more unassuming place and yet for all purposes it is what Hagia Sophia ought to have been in the sense of what it was built to be.

Yes, St. George is a very special place so as whole Fener. Unfortunately, many building have been burnt down over the years. I have always thought it is very fitting that the Ecumenical Patriarch, the first by honour, has nothing - only a small church and tiny residence (which is quite regularly attacked - stones etc). At the time I saw him coming into the church he had only one bodyguard (who also was a driver).

There is a book which prepared me for what I saw there, From the Holy Mountain: A Journey in the Shadow of Byzantium by William Dalrymple. I recommend this book to those who wish to immerse themselves into the beauty and melancholy of disappearing Christianity in the East.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Anastasia