Do We Have To Argue?

[Luke2219]

We do not say that the "Catholic Church is the only Christian church." In fact, all Protestants and Orthodox are Christians. The word Catholic means universal. All peoples who belive in one God, the Trinity, and Jesus dieing for our sin are part of the universal Christian church. All Protestants and Orthodox remain part of the universal (Catholic) Church although not as completely as the Catholics. We refer to them as 'separated brothers and sisters' becasue they are part of our family, the Mystical Body of Christ, but are separted by one or more beliefs.

Yes, it is true that haveing a relationship with Christ is the only thing that matters. But the problem lies in the different ideas of what a relationship with Christ means, how to keep and strengthen that relationship, and how to live our lives now that we have it.

Yes, we believe that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth. I hope that you would believe the same about your church. How strong are your beliefs if you think that someone who disagrees with you could be right?

We should not argue. We should discuss. We should have ears to hear the Word of God. Stay away from name calling, bashing, and verse slinging. You bound to find that on this board or any board from time to time. But please keep up the civil dialog. Both sides are bound to learn something.

[cmotherofpirl]

All the liturgical stuff, recited prayers, etc.

Well, duh! I agree with Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs because I believe they are true! Not just because it suits me.

We don't spout lies about the Catholic Church.

I don't believe we are competing churches. If we are all working together with the Kingdom of God as our primary concern, we have the same goal. We have ecumenical church services and outreach events. We don't try to tell our Anglican brothers and sisters that they should do it our way. We don't try to steal members from their churches. It is a great thing if a person comes to know the Lord, and we are not going to try to win more people (in a competitive way) than the church down the road. We want as many people to come to know the Lord as possible, it doesn't matter which denomination they go to, so long as they have a personal relationship with Christ.

Different people have differing views. Within the Catholic church there are Jesuits (can't say much, don't know much about it). I am not about to go round saying 'The Baptist church is the only Christian church, we are the ones that are right and you all must be like us.' So why do you say that about the Catholic church? The pharisees were like that weren't they?

God bless.

Julie.

THe liturgical stuff is biblical.

Jesus celebrated the first Mass at a Sedar reliving the Passover of the Lord.

THe Sedar is a series of readings and responses reliving God's salvation. THen there are a series of blessings.:Blessed are you O Lord God King of the Universe. This was the point where Jesus changed the ritual and offered his own Body and Blood, the cup of Salvation. We do the same as He did.

So this ritual we call the Mass, is from the Jewsah Sedar of the last 3000 years or so, altered by Jesus and repeated by us today.

Can't get more biblical than that.

[[jas]]

We do not say that the "Catholic Church is the only Christian church."  In fact, all Protestants and Orthodox are Christians.  The word Catholic means universal.  All peoples who belive in one God, the Trinity, and Jesus dieing for our sin are part of the universal Christian church.  All Protestants and Orthodox remain part of the universal (Catholic) Church although not as completely as the Catholics.  We refer to them as 'separated brothers and sisters' becasue they are part of our family, the Mystical Body of Christ, but are separted by one or more beliefs.

Yes, it is true that haveing a relationship with Christ is the only thing that matters.  But the problem lies in the different ideas of what a relationship with Christ means, how to keep and strengthen that relationship, and how to live our lives now that we have it.

Yes, we believe that the Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth.  I hope that you would believe the same about your church.  How strong are your beliefs if you think that someone who disagrees with you could be right?

We should not argue.  We should discuss.  We should have ears to hear the Word of God.  Stay away from name calling, bashing, and verse slinging.  You bound to find that on this board or any board from time to time.  But please keep up the civil dialog.  Both sides are bound to learn something.

THANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!

I think someone gets what I've been saying for the last week.

[Luke2219]

You're welcome. Now that we're back on track. Let's get back to the civil discussion.

[ironmonk]

,Aug 31 2003, 03:16 AM] Say what????

Um, sounds like you're making Mary equal to Christ there, something I've been told Catholics don't do much as it appears that way...

Say what????

If someone truely believes that they are serving God the way God wants them to, then they are considered Catholic by desire. God is merciful and loving. That is what I meant by "God grades on a curve".

Romans 2:12

All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

Um, sounds like you're making Mary equal to Christ there, something I've been told Catholics don't do much as it appears that way...

No it doesn't. If we are brothers in Christ, we accept Mary as our Mother. Through Mary came our salvation - Which is Christ... Christ got all of His human nature from Mary...

Two people in the bible are said to be "Full of Grace" - Jesus & Mary.

To be "Full of Grace" is to be without sin.

No Catholic believes that Mary is equal to Christ. Anyone who claims to be Catholic and says Mary is equal to Christ does not know anything about the Catholic faith.

Mary is Co-Redemtrix - which means "Woman with the Redeemer". It's Latin.

"Co" means "with" NOT 'equal to'.... Think of Pilot and Co-Pilot... the co-pilot is not equal to the pilot, but is with the pilot.

Mary had God in her womb for 9 months... Think about that for a while. To litterally have God living inside of you, His physical body.... (which all Catholics have Christ inside of them if we take the Eucharist, but that's another Topic).

Read Luke 1 a few times, and think about what each verse says... ponder on it. Here are some links to quotes from what the first Christians had to say about Mary:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercessi..._the_Saints.asp

Here is a summary of Mary in the Scriptures:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_v...irgin_mary.html

See, I have a devotion to Mary... Mary helps me come closer to Christ. She prays with me and for me. We know from scriptures and Church teachings that the power of the righteous is very powerful. Mary is the Greatest Saint, for she is the only just human to never sin... She was worthy to have God inside her. Worthy to be the Mother of God.... We honor the Holy Family... God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of Christ - Mary.... Mary is not equal to God, but Mary is greater than every just human that has ever lived or will live. She was the first Christian; She is the greatest just human that has ever lived.

Through the sin of a woman, man fell. Through the righteousness of a woman, man was saved. It was through Mary that God became Man, for the salvation of all men.

Please do try to understand.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,

ironmonk

Militia Immaculata

Edited August 31, 2003 by ironmonk

[Robyn]

I've discovered there is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE relating to praying to Mary...HOWEVER there is ALSO NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE not to.

Don't know if that means anything to you, but it doesn'r change my view at all. Mary was Mary. She lived. She died. I'll see her in heaven.

[VanHooty]

Well, there are Biblical references to praying to the saints. One such example would be Revelation 5:8.

And, since you yourself seem to believe Mary is in heaven, what's wrong with asking for her intercession?

[Robyn]

Because I don't believe she is alive.

and to me, anything in Revelation is related to the End Times. It's a vision.

[VanHooty]

...

...

I believe she's alive. I mean... uh... well... I do profess the belief in life after death... so... yeah.

Heck, since she is in heaven and is in complete union with God (not that she hasn't always been... but that's another argument for another time), one can think of her as more alive then those of us on Earth.

Edited September 1, 2003 by VanHooty

[Dave]

I've discovered there is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE relating to praying to Mary...HOWEVER there is ALSO NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE not to.

Don't know if that means anything to you, but it doesn'r change my view at all. Mary was Mary. She lived. She died. I'll see her in heaven.

That's a non-answer. It's like you ignored what ironmonk said and are simply parroting what you've been taught.

But first of all, if you read some of these threads, you'll see that the idea that everything a Christian believes must be spelled out in scripture is a man-made idea that nullifies the Word of God. No Christian believed that until Martin Luther, a mere man who had his own agenda, came on the scene.

Secondly, do you ask your friends to pray for you and with you? That's what we're doing when we pray to Mary -- we ask her to pray for us and with us.

And Mary is not dead now. She's alive in heaven, body and soul. At the end of her life (we don't know for sure if she actually died first), she was assumed by Jesus, body and soul, into heaven.

[cmotherofpirl]

Why wouldn't she be alive?

Moses was alive when he talked to Jesus at the transfiguration. So was Elijah.

God is a God of the living.

Their bodies might be long gone, like a discarded envelope, but their souls and personalities are very much alive.

Life is changed, not ended , remember?

[ironmonk]

Because I don't believe she is alive.

and to me, anything in Revelation is related to the End Times. It's a vision.

Remember when Moses came to Jesus... Even the Apostles saw him.

Moses is very alive. Likewise, so is Mary.

The saints in Heaven, are more alive than we are.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

1 Cor. 12:26- when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God. This proves the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers are united.

Rev. 6:9-11 - God answers the prayers of the saints. In this case, he avenges their blood. We therefore ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 - in heaven the prayers of the saints rise up as incense before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his childrens' requests.

John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but allows and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.

John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.

John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

I hope that helps your understanding....

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk