Do We Have To Argue?

[Joolye]

I didn't know where to post my thoughts re the protestant - catholic debate, so I started my own post.

Personally, I like the Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs. I went to an Anglican church service this morning and thought it was weird. But some people like it I guess. I think Catholics are a bit way off and do some weird things, but if they love God, then I believe they will be saved. I still think of them as Christians.

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that we should do as it says.

Do we need to try and convert each other though? I'm happy with what I believe, and the catholics are happy with what they believe, and we're all still going to heaven, so who cares about argueing about it?

Acht, it's fun to debate it!

[Aloysius]

I didn't know where to post my thoughts re the protestant - catholic debate, so I started my own post.

Personally, I like the Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs. I went to an Anglican church service this morning and thought it was weird. But some people like it I guess. I think Catholics are a bit way off and do some weird things, but if they love God, then I believe they will be saved. I still think of them as Christians.

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that we should do as it says.

Do we need to try and convert each other though? I'm happy with what I believe, and the catholics are happy with what they believe, and we're all still going to heaven, so who cares about argueing about it?

Acht, it's fun to debate it!

good that u think of us as Christians... cause we ARE! B)

yep, debating is fun.

i'm not tryin 2 convert anyone. Converting is God's department. I'm just tryin to educate everyone about my faith, get educated about other faiths, and get educated about my own faith when i make a mistake and contradict the Church and the Bible.

"we should all do as the Bible says." ~Joolye ::Runs off 2 mass 2 follow Joolye's command::

B)

Pax et Amo Christi!

Edited August 31, 2003 by Aloysius

[Dave]

Joolye:

If you think Catholics are "way off" and do some "weird things," then you ought to do some research into why we believe and/or do that which you find weird. Ask questions!

As for your statement that you're happy with Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs, you shouldn't choose a brand of Christianity based on what you're happy with; you should choose it based on its truth. Those of us who are Catholic on this forum are Catholic because, first and foremost, because we believe it to be true. Actually, the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus Christ founded, and when people come here and denounce what we believe, they denounce Jesus. As servants of the Lord, we're not going to tolerate that. We're going to stand up for Jesus! People who spout lies about the Catholic Church are the ones who need most to hear the complete truth of what the Catholic Church really teaches.

In addition, you say that it doesn't matter what we believe just as long as we love God. I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Jesus Christ founded one Church, not a collection of competing churches. He intended it to have one set of beliefs and practices. Competing churches was the result of men like Martin Luther who came along several centuries later and broke with the Catholic Church. And it's done nothing but cause confusion. There are thousands of Protestant denominations today, yet no two totally agree on Christian doctrine.

[Dave]

The Invisible Church

Source: Insight 944's Catholic Apologetics

The concept of the invisible church was first put forward by the Protestant reformers to overcome the age old belief that Jesus Christ established a "visible" church, the "Universal" church which would later mature into the Roman Catholic Church. This they had to do in order to justify their rejection of Papal authority, as they also had to reject apostolic succession and sacred tradition. Therefore they wound up rejecting everything which points to the mystical body of Christ, the church, as being a united body in total union with the Father and the Son, through the Holy Spirit, as Jesus so fervently prayed for in John 17:20-22, "That they me be perfectly one."

The invisible church they tell us is the true mystical body, made up of a collection of true believers from all denominations. There is no doubt that God does not withhold His Spirit, as Peter attests to in Acts 10:34 "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right." And Jesus promised in Luke 11:13 "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

But the question to consider is: does the presence of the Holy Spirit constitute the mystical body, the church or is there something else involved? (John 11:49-51) "Then one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all; you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish." He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation." The gospel writer John states that the high priest prophesied, although he was plotting the death of Jesus. John also makes it clear that it was only because he was high priest. It can, therefore, be argued that the gift of prophesy was part of being high priest, and in our experience, only by the Holy Spirit is anyone able to prophesy. So there, it is possible for churches in disunity and in opposition to the true church, to have this fire of God’s Spirit come down from heaven.

When we read the epistles of Paul, we can see that the communities he preached to were composed of baptized, spirit filled converts. Yet they warranted much instruction and admonishment from the apostle. The Spirit it seems did not impose the teachings of Christ on the believers, but rather allowed the free will of each to accept or reject according to their own inclination. The ones more open to Paul’s message benefited from the Spirit sooner than those who wanted to cling to their old ways.

This tells us that there has to be some form of authority to which the community of believers must be subject to in order to maintain any kind of unity. Jesus foresaw this when he decided to choose twelve men to be his disciples and continue his ministry after his ascension. For he did not go about Galilee and Judea preaching without the twelve expecting after his death that each of his hearers would become a freelance disciple and spread the gospel by word of mouth. No, he chose twelve and in so doing formed the nucleus of a visible organization, a visible body.

The next question than is: Did Jesus plan that after the last of the twelve died there was to be no more organization? Certainly not, as we see in Acts, Chapter 1, the first thing the apostles did was to choose a successor to replace Judas Iscariot. Peter quotes the psalm in verse 20, "May another take his place of leadership." This tells us that the authority bestowed upon the twelve by Jesus, "He who listens to you listens to me" (Luke 10:16) has the ability to be passed down from man to man and henceforth from generation to generation.

The rejection of authority St. Paul counts among some very grievous sins. Gal 5:19-21 "The acts of a sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissentions, factions and envy; drunkerdness, orgies and the like." The word discord refers to loud and noisy opposition to authority. The word dissentions refers to rejecting the views of authority. The word faction refers to division into various parties according to self-interests. Certainly Paul does not condone any kind of deviation from the doctrines he preaches or any kind of schism or splitting up of the church. He goes on to tell Timothy, (1Tim 6:3-4) "If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing." And he implores the faithful to remain united (I Cor 1:10) "I appeal to you brethern, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissentions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." Clearly the Bible teaches that the church, the body, must be united, not only in Spirit, but also in doctrinal belief and subject to the authority of Jesus Christ through his apostles and their ordained successors.

And who are their ordained successors? Take any Catholic bishop and know for certain that he was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop and so on and so forth and you will eventually reach an original apostle. That is amesome!

In the Old Testament, we see that God has a set apart for himself a chosen people, Israel. This chosen people forshadows or prefigures the fulfillment of his kingdom in the New Testament. He has a visable chosen people; why would he then have an invisible church?

In conclusion then, there really is no invisible church. There is only the one church instituted by Christ and begun by the twelve apostles. And then there are all the branches and offshoots and factions and sects. The mystical body of Christ, therefore is a concept not conditioned on the presence of the Holy Spirit alone, but requires full and complete union with the Father and the Son and obedience to their authority as administered by their appointed apostles and their successors. Only such members of the body can hope to approach the level of perfection Jesus fervently prayed for. All the rest can only achieve the periphery of the body; without perfect obedience they cannot in this life taste that perfect unity our Lord so dearly desired for his people. Jesus himself foresaw the reformers, who have accomplished little other than to give us separated brethren, and he prophesied first referring to the Gentiles and then to the separated, John 10:16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Edited August 31, 2003 by Dave

[littleflower+JMJ]

dave your so cool! i never get tired of reading your posts cuz i always learn something!

B) B)

[Dave]

Awwww . . . Flowery, you're gonna make me blush! I'm flattered that you think that, though; thank you. B)

[littleflower+JMJ]

Do we need to try and convert each other though? I'm happy with what I believe, and the catholics are happy with what they believe, and we're all still going to heaven, so who cares about argueing about it?

think of it this way...

we all are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are all called to love our neighbor and so forth

well, just like friends care for each other and their well-being, we also care for you

its like one of my friends helping me out when im' walking down a long tunnel of darkness, i could get lost, i could fall, and worse, i may never reach the other side,

my friend knowing this says "hey, theres a lightswitch on your right! turn it on! this way you can reach the end!!" ( i would have never had known that there was a light switch there if she would not have told to me that and probably would of had alot more trouble because i would not have known the way

well we are like this with our faith, we want you to know the truth of God's One and Holy Church, we do not want you on your own without the knowledge that God wants you to know and gives to all who seek it....

and the Catholic church is the one that will grant you that lightswitch to reach the other side, through its sacred tradition, scripture and the truth in the foundation of the Catholic Church, without it, we are lacking and lost, stumbling to find our way...

God bLess!

+JMJ

if it doesn't make any sense...i apologize...

[Carrie]

Dave, that was great. Very informative. I learned something today.

[Dave]

Thanks, but the guy at Insight944's Catholic apologetics really deserves the credit.

[Paladin D]

To be quite honest, when I made my way to Catholicism. Some things I personally wasn't too tickled about, such as...contraceptives and masturbation. But I've learned to see the truth within it, but even I (with the masturbation part) struggle with.

Truth isn't easy, but I like a challenge.

[cmotherofpirl]

If sanctity didn't cost anything, how could it be worth anything?

Peter Kreeft

CS Lewis said is somebody tells you the answer is easy and simple, they are invariably wrong.

[ironmonk]

I didn't know where to post my thoughts re the protestant - catholic debate, so I started my own post.

Personally, I like the Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs. I went to an Anglican church service this morning and thought it was weird. But some people like it I guess. I think Catholics are a bit way off and do some weird things, but if they love God, then I believe they will be saved. I still think of them as Christians.

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that we should do as it says.

Do we need to try and convert each other though? I'm happy with what I believe, and the catholics are happy with what they believe, and we're all still going to heaven, so who cares about argueing about it?

Acht, it's fun to debate it!

Jooyle,

Something to think about....

Say we had 3 people...

"Luther" believed that 2 + 2 = 10

"Calvin" believed that 2 + 2 = 1

"Peter" believed that 2 + 2 = 4

Can they all be correct?

How can we help Luther and Calvin to know the whole Truth. They have parts of the Truth, but they are not adding them together properly and end up with a wrong answer.

Luckily, God grades on a curve.... but, the truth must be preached...

Also, this is a Catholic forum, and through the will of God, people come here for a reason... sometimes not apparent to themselves.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

Edited August 31, 2003 by ironmonk

[Luke2219]

We don't need to argue, but we must speak the truth. It is not love to hide from someone that which may save him.

[[jas]]

Luckily, God grades on a curve....

Say what????

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

Um, sounds like you're making Mary equal to Christ there, something I've been told Catholics don't do much as it appears that way...

[Joolye]

If you think Catholics are "way off" and do some "weird things," then you ought to do some research into why we believe and/or do that which you find weird. Ask questions!

All the liturgical stuff, recited prayers, etc.

As for your statement that you're happy with Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs, you shouldn't choose a brand of Christianity based on what you're happy with; you should choose it based on its truth. Those of us who are Catholic on this forum are Catholic because, first and foremost, because we believe it to be true.

Well, duh! I agree with Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs because I believe they are true! Not just because it suits me.

Actually, the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus Christ founded, and when people come here and denounce what we believe, they denounce Jesus. As servants of the Lord, we're not going to tolerate that. We're going to stand up for Jesus! People who spout lies about the Catholic Church are the ones who need most to hear the complete truth of what the Catholic Church really teaches.

We don't spout lies about the Catholic Church.

In addition, you say that it doesn't matter what we believe just as long as we love God. I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Jesus Christ founded one Church, not a collection of competing churches. He intended it to have one set of beliefs and practices. Competing churches was the result of men like Martin Luther who came along several centuries later and broke with the Catholic Church. And it's done nothing but cause confusion. There are thousands of Protestant denominations today, yet no two totally agree on Christian doctrine.

I don't believe we are competing churches. If we are all working together with the Kingdom of God as our primary concern, we have the same goal. We have ecumenical church services and outreach events. We don't try to tell our Anglican brothers and sisters that they should do it our way. We don't try to steal members from their churches. It is a great thing if a person comes to know the Lord, and we are not going to try to win more people (in a competitive way) than the church down the road. We want as many people to come to know the Lord as possible, it doesn't matter which denomination they go to, so long as they have a personal relationship with Christ.

Different people have differing views. Within the Catholic church there are Jesuits (can't say much, don't know much about it). I am not about to go round saying 'The Baptist church is the only Christian church, we are the ones that are right and you all must be like us.' So why do you say that about the Catholic church? The pharisees were like that weren't they?

God bless.

Julie.