On Papal Authority

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:50 PM'] The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances. [/quote]
Another of the reasons that this practice is condemned focuses on the seal of confession. Click on the link below to see the brief article on this topic:

[url="http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=29711"]http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=29711[/url]

[Apotheoun]

The Pontifical Council for Social Communications has stated the following in its document on the Church's use of the Internet:

"Although the virtual reality of cyberspace cannot substitute for real interpersonal community, the incarnational reality of the sacraments and the liturgy, or the immediate and direct proclamation of the gospel, it can complement them, attract people to a fuller experience of the life of faith, and enrich the religious lives of users. It also provides the Church with a means for communicating with particular groups—young people and young adults, the elderly and home-bound, persons living in remote areas, the members of other religious bodies—who otherwise may be difficult to reach." [PCSC [u]The Church and the Internet[/u], no. 5]

"Similarly, as noted above, the virtual reality of cyberspace has some worrisome implications for religion as well as for other areas of life. Virtual reality is no substitute for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacramental reality of the other sacraments, and shared worship in a flesh-and-blood human community. [i][b]There are no sacraments on the Internet[/b]; and even the religious experiences possible there by the grace of God are insufficient apart from real-world interaction with other persons of faith[/i]. Here is another aspect of the Internet that calls for study and reflection. At the same time, pastoral planning should consider how to lead people from cyberspace to true community and how, through teaching and catechesis, the Internet might subsequently be used to sustain and enrich them in their Christian commitment." [PCSC [u]The Church and the Internet[/u], no. 9]

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:53 PM'] Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano [/quote]
Wow, and I don't even know you. Funny if we say we love our current Pope, all of a sudden we're blind and indiscrimate.

But in what context is the quote?

[quote]In 1556 he wrote his famous Consultatio theologica, in which he advised the king to resist the temporal encroachments of the papacy and, as absolute monarch, to defend his rights by bringing about a radical change in the administration of ecclesiastical revenues, thus making Spain less dependent on Rome.[/quote]

That was said in a different time and different context. Why do many forget the quote of St. Augustine? "Rome has spoken; the case is closed." (Sermon 131:10) on matters of infallibility.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 3 2004, 08:56 AM'] As Venerable John Cardinal Newman wrote: "We must [i]never[/i] suffer ourselves to doubt, that, in his [i.e., the Pope's] government of the Church, [i]he is guided by an intelligence more than human[/i]. His yoke is the yoke of Christ, he has the responsibility of his own acts, [i]not we[/i]; and to his Lord must he render account, [i]not to us[/i]. Even in secular matters it is ever safe to be on his side, [i]dangerous to be on the side of his enemies[/i]. Our duty is, not indeed to mix up Christ's Vicar with this or that party of men, because he in his high station is above all parties, but to look at his formal deeds, [i]and to follow him whither he goeth, and never to desert him, however we may be tried, but to defend him at all hazards, and against all comers, as a son would a father, and as a wife a husband, knowing that his cause is the cause of God[/i]. And so, as regards his successors, if we live to see them; [i]it is our duty to give them in like manner our dutiful allegiance and our unfeigned service, and to follow them also whithersoever they go, having that same confidence that each in his turn and in his own day will do God's work and will, which we have felt in their predecessors, now taken away to their eternal reward[/i]. [John Cardinal Newman, [u]Sermons Preached on Various Occasions[/u], "The Pope and the Revolution," Sermon 15, section I, no. 1; preached on 7 October 1866, in the Church of the Oratory, Birmingham, England] [/quote]
I'm putting that in my personal "quotes" section.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 4 2004, 12:27 PM'][quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:53 PM']Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano[/quote]
Wow, and I don't even know you. Funny if we say we love our current Pope, all of a sudden we're blind and indiscrimate.[/quote]
It is funny how that tends to be the attitude of some people.

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 4 2004, 12:27 PM']But in what context is the quote?
[quote]In 1556 he wrote his famous Consultatio theologica, in which he advised the king to resist the temporal encroachments of the papacy and, as absolute monarch, to defend his rights by bringing about a radical change in the administration of ecclesiastical revenues, thus making Spain less dependent on Rome.[/quote][/quote]
Thank you, for providing context to Melchior Cano's statement.

[quote name='jmjtina' date=' Jul 4 2004, 12:27 PM']That was said in a different time and different context.  Why do many forget the quote of St. Augustine?  "Rome has spoken; the case is closed." (Sermon 131:10) on matters of infallibility.[/quote]
Because some people, under the guise of tradition, wish to dissent from the formal deeds of the reigning Pontiff, who happens to be the guardian of tradition. As a former Protestant, I have no desire to dissent from the acts of the Sovereign Pontiff; and so, along with Cardinal Newman, I shall ". . . follow [the Pope] whither he goeth, and never to desert him, however [I] may be tried, but to defend him at all hazards, and against all comers, as a son would a father." [John Cardinal Newman, [u]Sermon Preached on Various Occasions[/u], "The Pope and the Revolution," Sermon 15, section I, no. 1; preached on 7 October 1866, in the Church of the Oratory, Birmingham, England]

jmjtina, thank you again for your post.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Guest JeffCR07]

Just to respond to this quote:

[quote]The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances. [/quote]

Another reason for this is because all Sacraments have both "form" and matter." In the case of Baptism, the matter is water (remember, baptism by blood and desire are not "sacraments" in the official sense, though they remain "baptism" as the person in question is entering the Church). For Anointing of the Sick, it is oil. For the Eucharist, it is the physical manifestation of bread/flesh and wine/blood. For Confession it is the laying on of hands or the raising of hands above the one confessing. For Confirmation, it is the chrism. For Marriage it is the rings. For Holy Orders i think it is also chrism, though a priest could tell you for sure.

In the case of phone or online confession the matter is impossible, and, as such, a licit sacrament cannot exist. Hope that helps.


- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[Aloysius]

yeah I know, I know. I only wondered about extreme circumstances, cause there are all kinds of exceptions regarding confession when it comes to extreme circumstances. but I assume I was wrong.

however, if I'm dyin on the side of the road and the only priest I can talk to is on the other end of a Phone, I'll still confess my sins and ask him to absolve me or at least bless me or something, just in case. It's not like it would hurt, and I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes anyway.

Pax Amorque Christi

[Apotheoun]

Water is the remote matter ([i]materia remota[/i]) of the sacrament of Baptism, while the action of washing ([i]ablution[/i]) done by the priest is the proximate matter ([i]materia proxima[/i]) of the sacrament. The invocation of the Holy Trinity is the form of this sacrament.

For Confirmation the remote matter ([i]materia remota[/i]) is the oil blessed by the Bishop, while the laying on of hands and signing of the person with the cross is the proximate matter ([i]materia proxima[/i]). The form of this sacrament is the prayer of the priest sealing the person with the Holy Spirit. In the West the Bishop is normally the celebrant of this sacrament, although a priest if deputed by the Bishop can celebrate Confirmation as an extraordinary minister. In the East the priest ordinarily confers this sacrament, which is normally called Chrismation.

For Anointing of the Sick the remote matter ([i]materia remota[/i]) is the oil blessed by the Bishop, while the laying on of hands of the priest is the proximate matter ([i]materia proxima[/i]). The prayer of epiclesis is the form of this sacrament.

For the sacrament of the Eucharist the bread and wine are the matter, and the form is the prayer over the elements by the priest (in the West the focus is on the Words of Institution, while in the East the epiclesis calling down the Holy Spirit is the focus).

For Confession the matter of the sacrament is the contrition and confession of the penitent, while the form consists in the absolution given by the priest.

For Holy Orders the matter of the sacrament is the laying on of hands of the Bishop, and the form is the prayer consecrating the priest to act in the person of Christ.

For the sacrament of Marriage the mutual consent of the spouses in which they offer themselves to each other is the form of the sacrament (and in the Eastern Churches the blessing of the priest is also necessary for validity), and the matter is the mutual and consensual acceptance of this offer by the spouses, culminating in the consummation of the marriage through the conjugal act.

It is the impersonal nature of telecommunications that inhibits the possibility of celebrating a sacrament over the phone or the internet, and that is why the PCSC stated that, "There are no sacraments on the Internet; and even the religious experiences possible there by the grace of God are insufficient apart from real-world interaction with other persons of faith." [PCSC [u]The Church and the Internet[/u], no. 9]

Edited July 5, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:11 PM'] yeah I know, I know.  I only wondered about extreme circumstances, cause there are all kinds of exceptions regarding confession when it comes to extreme circumstances.  but I assume I was wrong.

however, if I'm dyin on the side of the road and the only priest I can talk to is on the other end of a Phone, I'll still confess my sins and ask him to absolve me or at least bless me or something, just in case.  It's not like it would hurt, and I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes anyway.   

Pax Amorque Christi [/quote]
There is no exception in this case, and so rather than waste time trying to phone or instant message a priest, you should make a perfect act of contrition. There is no harm in phoning a priest in such a situation, but it would not be a true and valid sacrament.

Edited July 5, 2004 by Apotheoun

[IcePrincessKRS]

Would a priest be able to grant a general absolution long distance if he knew that a person were ill or dying but unable to arrive in time to give Last Rites? (Not necessarily over the phone or internet but just with the knowledge of the situation grant general absolution.) I am curious because can't priests grant general absolution for soldiers away at war? Or does the priest have to be present to grant it?

Edited July 5, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[Guest JeffCR07]

I believe the answer is no, though I have no documentation to back it up. The only case of general absolution I have heard is in the case of war, and it is done by a priest who is acting as a chaplain and cannot hear the vast number of confessions that need to be heard. However, even in these extreme cases, the priest is physically present. I do not believe it is possible to give even a general absolution without physical proximity.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[IcePrincessKRS]

Ok, thats what I was thinking but I wasn't 100% sure.

Thanks Jeff.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 4 2004, 11:11 PM'] yeah I know, I know.  I only wondered about extreme circumstances, cause there are all kinds of exceptions regarding confession when it comes to extreme circumstances.  but I assume I was wrong.

however, if I'm dyin on the side of the road and the only priest I can talk to is on the other end of a Phone, I'll still confess my sins and ask him to absolve me or at least bless me or something, just in case.  It's not like it would hurt, and I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes anyway.   

Pax Amorque Christi [/quote]
There's no reason to. If those are your thoughts at the time, then most likely you would be in a state of "perfect contrition." If you have the intention of going to Reconciliation and are unable to, and you're in the state of mortal sin, but still feel sorry for your sins, then really you are most likely in that state. Now this is not to say that if you can't go to Reconciliation before Mass that you can receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament because really you can go to Reconciliation. Now if you're on the side of the road and a priest cannot make it to you and you die longing for Reconciliation, this works. Then in that case you can be saved.

Edited July 5, 2004 by qfnol31

[Aloysius]

i understand all that, but I don't presume it cuz you're not supposed to. I'd rather talk to a priest on the phone just in case.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 5 2004, 12:11 PM'] i understand all that, but I don't presume it cuz you're not supposed to. I'd rather talk to a priest on the phone just in case. [/quote]
It does no harm to talk to a priest on the phone in that situation, but he can't give you absolution, so be sure to make a perfect act of contrition.

God bless,
Todd