On Papal Authority

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Since I cannot respond to the thread on those pesky ultra-traditionalists (started by dust) I will simply post this. It speaks for itself. Melchior Cano was (and is) one of the most respected theologians produced by the Church.

Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano

[littleflower+JMJ]

your pspx's friend aren't you?

[Aloysius]

i think he's his predecessor by 32 popes



The above quote is true, but not necessarily to the extent you may be thinking

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:58 PM'] i think he's his predecessor by 32 popes



The above quote is true, but not necessarily to the extent you may be thinking [/quote]
Unless you are able to read souls (which would be awsome and scary at the same time) you should not speculate as to what I am thinking .

[Aloysius]

okay, sorry. I was just guessing what point you were planning on making based on the nature of the thread you wanted to post that on.

on another note, i wonder, has there ever been anyone with spiritual gifts like reading souls that extended through the internet? that'd be interesting and scary and really neato.

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:13 PM'] okay, sorry. I was just guessing what point you were planning on making based on the nature of the thread you wanted to post that on.

on another note, i wonder, has there ever been anyone with spiritual gifts like reading souls that extended through the internet? that'd be interesting and scary and really neato. [/quote]
Not bloody likely. I would say that if they have that gift, it has nothing to do with the internet.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 2 2004, 10:53 PM'] Since I cannot respond to the thread on those pesky ultra-traditionalists (started by dust) I will simply post this.  It speaks for itself.  Melchior Cano was (and is) one of the most respected theologians produced by the Church.

Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very ones who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See - they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations." -Melchior Cano [/quote]
It is always unwise to accept the opinion of a single theologian, no matter how respectable he may be, over the definitive teaching of the Sacred Magisterium. Melchior Cano lived several hundred years before the infallible definitions on the primacy of jurisdiction and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff, his views and the views of many other theologians were debated by the Council Fathers, but it is the definitive teaching proclaimed by the Fathers of Vatican 1, to which all Catholics must, as a matter of divine and catholic faith, give assent, and not the private opinion of Melchior Cano.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Pope Saint Pius V]

Nothing in that quotation contradicts what was later defined. In fact, it shows the proper balance is quite close (though certainly not in exact formulation) to those declarations. He more or less shoots right down the middle between Manning and Newman.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:13 PM'] on another note, i wonder, has there ever been anyone with spiritual gifts like reading souls that extended through the internet?  that'd be interesting and scary and really neato. [/quote]
This brings up an interesting question though. Can there be some spiritual activity through the some communication device. For instance, if it was absolutely the only possibility could a person go to confession over the phone?

Now that I think about it, I suppose a person who was able to read souls could do so through the internet if that is what the Divine Will desired.

How did we get on this subject?

Edited July 3, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 3 2004, 08:31 AM']Nothing in that quotation contradicts what was later defined.  In fact, it shows the proper balance is quite close (though certainly not in exact formulation) to those declarations.  He more or less shoots right down the middle between Manning and Newman.[/quote]
As Venerable John Cardinal Newman wrote: "We must [i]never[/i] suffer ourselves to doubt, that, in his [i.e., the Pope's] government of the Church, [i]he is guided by an intelligence more than human[/i]. His yoke is the yoke of Christ, he has the responsibility of his own acts, [i]not we[/i]; and to his Lord must he render account, [i]not to us[/i]. Even in secular matters it is ever safe to be on his side, [i]dangerous to be on the side of his enemies[/i]. Our duty is, not indeed to mix up Christ's Vicar with this or that party of men, because he in his high station is above all parties, but to look at his formal deeds, [i]and to follow him whither he goeth, and never to desert him, however we may be tried, but to defend him at all hazards, and against all comers, as a son would a father, and as a wife a husband, knowing that his cause is the cause of God[/i]. And so, as regards his successors, if we live to see them; [i]it is our duty to give them in like manner our dutiful allegiance and our unfeigned service, and to follow them also whithersoever they go, having that same confidence that each in his turn and in his own day will do God's work and will, which we have felt in their predecessors, now taken away to their eternal reward[/i]. [John Cardinal Newman, [u]Sermons Preached on Various Occasions[/u], "The Pope and the Revolution," Sermon 15, section I, no. 1; preached on 7 October 1866, in the Church of the Oratory, Birmingham, England]

Edited July 3, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Pope Saint Pius V]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 3 2004, 08:56 AM'] but to look at his formal deeds [/quote]
Here is the key phrase. What is "formal deeds"? Judging by his arguments at the council it is much more restricted than you are attempting to imply here.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Pope Saint Pius V

[ThyWillBeDone]

Wow that is an awesome quote Apotheoun. John Cardinal Newman's writings are just amazing
God Bless,
Chris

[Aloysius]

The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Pope Saint Pius V' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:26 PM'] Here is the key phrase.  What is "formal deeds"?  Judging by his arguments at the council it is much more restricted than you are attempting to imply here. [/quote]
Since many of Pope John Paul II's deeds that socalled "traditionalists" have a hard time accepting are quite clearly "formal deeds" of the present Pontiff, i.e., acts in which he is functioning as the official head of the Church (e.g., the Assissi events, issuing liturgical norms, advocating interreligious dialogue, etc.), perhaps you might clarify this thread by listing which of his acts you hold that you are exempted from accepting.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 09:50 PM'] The Church has come out against internet or phone confessions, but i donno if they're allowed in extreme circumstances. [/quote]
This would be by definition invalid, because the sacramental signs require the proximity of the priest and the penitent. Any attempt to celebrate the sacrament of penance over the phone or on the internet would be to simulate the sacrament, and would be a grave offense.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun