ironmonk Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Some say that they can read the bible and read the Catholic Church Catechism and disagree.... People could disagree on those grounds... but how do they know that they are right? Let's look at some facts...[list] [*]The NT Canon came to us around 400 AD. [*]The NT Canon was given to us by the Catholic Church. [*]Christ promised the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit - The Spirit of Truth. [*]If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, no one would have the bible. [*]Christ said the Church would never be overcome. [*]The only Church that is in line with what the first Christian's taught - the same group that was taught by the Apostles - is the Catholic Church [*]The Apostles spoke Aramaic. [*]The NT was originally written in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. [*]The Apostles wrote that anyone who left the group would do so to their own destruction. [*]All non-Catholic churches that claim to be Christian left the Catholic Church either directly or indirectly. [/list] Given the above facts... it would not be logical to think that we actually understand the NT better then the same group who gave us the NT. Resources: [url="http://www.Britannica.com"]http://www.Britannica.com[/url] (Premium) [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm[/url] [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers[/url] Catholicism - carb-free, fat-free Christianity the way Christ intended. God Bless, Love in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 (edited) [quote]The NT Canon came to us around 400 AD.[/quote] Yes [quote]The NT Canon was given to us by the Catholic Church.[/quote] Yes. But not the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today. [quote]Christ promised the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit - The Spirit of Truth. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, no one would have the bible.[/quote] Rather, if we didn't have the Spirit - which we do. [quote]Christ said the Church would never be overcome.[/quote] This does not mean she will not suffer. A football team can be losing in the first two quarters, then come back and pull ahead, winning the game. Similarly, false doctrine may creep into the Church, but Christ will always purify her from all error through His Word, the Bible. This is what occured when the great and Godly Martin Luther and John Calvin set out to reform Christ's Church. [quote]The only Church that is in line with what the first Christian's taught - the same group that was taught by the Apostles - is the Catholic Church[/quote] The Apostles taught imputed justification by faith. Rome teaches infused justification by sacraments. Rome does not teach apostolic doctrine. [quote]The Apostles spoke Aramaic.[/quote] Yes [quote]The NT was originally written in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek.[/quote] Yes, though I dont see what relevance this has. [quote]The Apostles wrote that anyone who left the group would do so to their own destruction.[/quote] [color=blue]29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. [/color] [color=red]that was not nice [/color] All non-Catholic churches that claim to be Christian left the Catholic Church either directly or indirectly. Given the above facts... it would not be logical to think that we actually understand the NT better then the same group who gave us the NT. Edited July 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 01:31 PM'][quote name='ironmonk' date=' Jul 2 2004, 10:01 PM']The NT Canon was given to us by the Catholic Church.[/quote] Yes. But not the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today. [/quote] This statement is contrary to Catholic doctrine, and as such it is heretical. There is only one Church of Christ, and it subsists only in the Catholic Church governed by the Successor of St. Peter. Any other position is contrary to the Catholic faith as it is taught by the Church's Magisterium. Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 01:31 PM'] [quote name='ironmonk' date=' Jul 2 2004, 10:01 PM']The only Church that is in line with what the first Christian's taught - the same group that was taught by the Apostles - is the Catholic Church.[/quote] The Apostles taught imputed justification by faith. Rome teaches infused justification by sacraments. Rome does not teach apostolic doctrine.[/quote] This statement is contrary to Catholic doctrine as infallibly defined at the Council of Trent, and as such it is heretical. Justification brings about a true and ontological state of justice and sanctity within man, and not merely an imputed righteousness. In addition, the sacraments are the ordinary means for conveying God's grace, and a simple fiducial faith will not justify a man. Faith must be formed by charity, or it is dead. The Apostles never taught an imputed form of justification; instead, that is a type of theological nominalism taught by the Protestant Reformers. Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 01:31 PM'][quote name='ironmonk' date=' Jul 2 2004, 10:01 PM']Christ said the Church would never be overcome.[/quote] This does not mean she will not suffer. A football team can be losing in the first two quarters, then come back and pull ahead, winning the game. Similarly, false doctrine may creep into the Church, but Christ will always purify her from all error through His Word, the Bible. . . .[/quote] This statement is contrary to Catholic doctrine, and as such it is heretical. The Church's Magisterium teaches as a dogma of divine and catholic faith that the Church is indefectible; and in addition, it is a dogma of the faith that the Church's Magisterium cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals. Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 [quote name='Previously']Yes. But not the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today. [/quote][quote]This statement is contrary to Catholic doctrine, and as such it is heretical.[/quote] I don't care. You can call it heretical if you like, but that's useless if I don't accept the authority of the Catholic Church. I used to, but thank God, he delivered me from it. [quote]There is only one Church of Christ, and it subsists only in the Catholic Church governed by the Successor of St. Peter.[/quote] No, it subsists in those churches which are faithful to Christ in Word and Sacrament. The Catholic Church is not. What I meant was that the NT Canon was given to us by the catholic Church back in the 4th and 5th centuries. However, that church gave rise to the corrupt Romanist church that we see today. [quote]This statement is contrary to Catholic doctrine as infallibly defined at the Council of Trent, and as such it is heretical.[/quote] Again, don't care. [quote]Justification brings about a true and ontological state of justice and sanctity within man, and not merely an imputed righteousness.[/quote] I agree. When God declares a person just (imputed righteousness) His word goes forth in power to actually make that person just. However, the former (the declaration) is JUSTification, (To declare righteous), and the latter is SANCTIFICATION. Rome has confused and muddled the two together. [quote]In addition, the sacraments are the ordinary means for conveying God's grace, and a simple fiducial faith will not justify a man. Faith must be formed by charity, or it is dead. [/quote] I agree, but charity is never a basis on which we are justified - rather, on the basis of fiducial faith only are we justified, and charity proves our faith to be true. [quote]This statement is contrary to Catholic doctrine, and as such it is heretical.[/quote] Je dirai encore, en francais. JE NE M'INQUIETE PAS! Comprends-tu? [quote]The Church's Magisterium teaches as a dogma of divine and catholic faith that the Church is indefectible;[/quote] Yes, but this is the Catholic Church's word. Scripture gives no such guarantee that the Church is infallible. Rather, it must be accountable to God's Word. [quote]and in addition, it is a dogma of the faith that the Church's Magisterium cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals. [/quote] Where is this in Scripture? And why restrict it only to faith and morals? Why not economics or politics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 ICTHUS, on this topic I have no interest in debating you. Your views are contrary to the teaching of the Church, and have been condemned, in one form or another, as heresy. God bless you, and I will pray for you, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 4, 2004 Author Share Posted July 4, 2004 icthus, your points are based on falicies and simply wrong... you have repeatedly failed to show any proof... only your opinion which contradicts all the first Christian writings, including the bible. YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT Trent... your whole argument is based on lies about Trent from anti-Catholics. The Church estabished by Christ is the Catholic Church of today. The only successor to Peter is PJP II. If not, then Jesus was wrong, which would mean that there is no God. It would be nice if you would at least try to study from THE SOURCE DOCUMENTS! [url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/trent.asp[/url] God Bless. ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 4 2004, 02:31 PM'] ICTHUS, on this topic I have no interest in debating you. Your views are contrary to the teaching of the Church, and have been condemned, in one form or another, as heresy. God bless you, and I will pray for you, Todd [/quote] Interesting. So your own Council of Trent says I'm going to hell, and you don't try to bring me back? Seems offly callous of you not to care about my soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 02:42 PM']Seems offly callous of you not to care about my soul. [/quote] I have no idea what the state of your soul is now or will be in the future, because that is something only God can determine, but I can judge your comments, and they are contrary to Catholic teaching. The reason I see no point in talking with you on these issues at the present time, is that you don't strike me as being all that interested in trying to understand what the Church teaches and why. So I'm not being awfully or "offly" callous in this matter at all, and as I said before, I will be praying for you. God bless, Todd Edited July 4, 2004 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 4, 2004 Author Share Posted July 4, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 04:42 PM'] Interesting. So your own Council of Trent says I'm going to hell, and you don't try to bring me back? Seems offly callous of you not to care about my soul. [/quote] You've rejected the ones Christ sent to your own destruction. It's a free gift if you choose to reject it, the blood is not on our hands any longer. AGAIN - YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT Trent. It is saddening how you think you know something when you have failed to study it, if you studied it, you would know. [url="http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06d1.htm"]http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06d1.htm[/url] [quote]CHAPTER VIII. In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and [b]gratuitously[/b]. [/quote] [b]gratuitously:[/b] 1. Given or granted without return or recompense; unearned. 2. Given or received without cost or obligation; free. 3. Unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified: gratuitous criticism. [b]Proverbs 26:4 [/b] Answer not the fool according to his folly, lest you too become like him. [b]5 [/b]Answer the fool according to his folly, lest he become wise in his own eyes. -ironmonk PS. You have begun to argue like Ian Paisley.... Would you think he knows what he's talking about? What does it make him when he attacks the Church on falsehoods about the Church? Edited July 4, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 [quote]You've rejected the ones Christ sent to your own destruction. It's a free gift if you choose to reject it, the blood is not on our hands any longer.[/quote] The Church is our free gift? I thought salvation was our free gift. Hmm. Maybe you guys don't have Ephesians 2:8-10 in your bibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 02:56 PM'] The Church is our free gift? I thought salvation was our free gift. Hmm. Maybe you guys don't have Ephesians 2:8-10 in your bibles. [/quote] I responded to these Bible verses in your thread called "My Beefs with the Catholic Church" P.S. God gives lots of Gifts God Bless, Jennie Edited July 5, 2004 by StColette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 (edited) [quote name='ICTHUS' date='Jul 4 2004, 03:42 PM'] Interesting. So your own Council of Trent says I'm going to hell, and you don't try to bring me back? Seems offly callous of you not to care about my soul. [/quote] Often prayers do more than debates. People wouldn't pray for you if they didn't care. I'm praying for you, too. Edited July 5, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 wait, what's the difference between Salvation and belonging to the Family of God (The Church)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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