Is This Outside The Realm Of Social Justice?

[Aloysius]

+JMJ
Let's talk Social Justice, economics, and Political Parties, everone's FAVORITE subjects I'm suuure... well, actually, I just have a simple question as to whether or not my views are compatible with Social Justice, but I'm sure it'll spark lively debate

Anyway, I believe in small government. I believe the larger government programs for the poor grow, the more freedom for the poor decreases. I believe that people who refuse to work are not entitled to the money of people who work for that money. As the Apostle says: "He who does not work, neither let him eat" ([i]2 Thes 3:10)[/i] I believe that those who are honestly unable to find work are entitled to the help of the government, but that help should always be help to get them on their feet and working again, not a dependency on government handouts. I believe there must be an incentive for work, and that Paul understood that which is why he made that incentive to work food. I believe if people work and earn their money, they are entitled to buy things. I believe that it is hypocritical to say one must only buy that which one needs and nothing else, because if that thinking was prevelant throughout all society many people would be out of jobs. Saying one shouldn't buy a Hummer, for example, because they could get a cheaper car, would put the makers of Hummers out of business. If everyone lived by the principle of not buying what they want for the sake of some principle of helping the poor it would just make more and more poor people. We must help the poor, but we must also sustain those who are not poor because they have worked to not be so. Small government for more freedom, help for the poor on the basis that they cannot remain dependent on that help forever, the help of the poor should be based more on charity than on government pulling a Robin Hood, but government should have a limited Robin Hood capacity in which it works to help the poor get jobs again, supports giving them food if they are hungry and those necessities that they lack because they are too poor to get them, but doesn't give them a lifetime supply of that unless they use that break the government is giving them to get back on their feet and learn to earn money themselves.

So, tell me, is that within Catholic Social Justice Doctrine? Remember I believe these things on the basis that this is how I think the poor can best be given their human dignity and all men can prosper if they so desire.

Just a question, cause if I recall in another thread I said I disagree with basically all the Democrat Party's policies and it was within my Catholic Faith to do so, and one of the PhatMass Liberals said I was wrong.

Pax Amorque Christi

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I agree with your economic positions, Al. I don't see how anyone could see them as outside Catholic teaching.

[qfnol31]

The Pope likes our form of government (to a point) because of the way it was orginally set up to help people. Personally I consider our government today to be a "progressive" one, with many new (and contradictary ideas) to the Constitution.

[BurkeFan]

Right on it is within the realm of Catholic Social Teaching. Government is not supposed to play the role of God in society.
People have a right to earn money and to do with it what they will (Rerum Novarum).
Government should be small, taking on only those functions which cannot be handled at a lower level. (Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno).
Of course, CST presumes a level of charity on the part of everyone. And I presume that that was implicit in your statement.
But, my point is, I do not see anything which is contradictory to CST in your statement, and I don't think I'm missing something. The Democratic party's principles are not based on Catholic Social Thought. Indeed, there is no obligation to be a socialist or even lean towards socialism in Catholicism, for there is quite the reverse, a condemnation of socialism by Pius XI when he wrote that "Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist." For more explanation and background to that quote, look to [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno_en.html"]Quadragesimo Anno[/url], paragraphs 98-128.

I would even be willing to argue that the Democratic party stands in direct violation of Catholic Social Thought, for a tenent of CST is that the common good and the personal good are inseparable. Hillary Clinton recently said, "We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." That's contrary to personal good, but, supposedly is beneficial to the common good. It doesn't work like that. You can't help the whole by hurting the individuals.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Wow Al, that was very well put. I'm pretty much fully in agreeance with you. Many people in America do not understand how wealth works and believe that it is evil and money should be confiscated because the government knows what to do with it. You also convey a sense of social justice that sets the Republicans apart from the Libertarians.

As a Republican, I believe that the government should help out when necessary, but should not be in the business of running a welfare state. Someone with $10,000 of wealth can do a whole lot more for the people of his or her community than the government can do with $10,000.

Edited July 2, 2004 by 1337 k4th0l1x0r

[Aloysius]

bump.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]As a Republican, I believe that the government should help out when necessary, but should not be in the business of running a welfare state. Someone with $10,000 of wealth can do a whole lot more for the people of his or her community than the government can do with $10,000.
[/quote]

That, particularly the last sentence, is my view in a nutshell.

This is why I plan on donating as much of my taxes as possible and writing it off. That way, the money will go to the causes I support and will do much more.

Privatized taxes! Woohoo!

[Aloysius]

bump. i know there's ppl out there that disagree with this, i wanna know if they think it's outside Catholic Social Teaching.

Pax

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 05:28 PM'] bump. i know there's ppl out there that disagree with this, i wanna know if they think it's outside Catholic Social Teaching.

Pax [/quote]
But it's not outside of the social teaching...

[Aloysius]

I want to hear that from someone like Iacobus who originally commented to me that I shouldn't disagree with all of the Democratic Party's teachings based on social justice.

[Aloysius]

[quote]QUOTE (Iacobus)[quote]QUOTE (Aloysius @ Jun 25 2004, 11:28 PM)
i don't agree with any of the democratic policy's policies. nope, not a one. and thank God it's completely within my Catholic Faith not to agree with the democratic party.

pAx 
[/quote]

Than I ask you to reexamion your faith Al. Read teh Church in the Modern World (part of Vatican II). Read up on Catholic social teachings. Like, welfare. Removal of 3rd world debts. Seeking an end to the DP in a timly manner. The Church, your faith, is more in line with the most liberal democart than a neo con GOP when you stack the issues up. In fact the only issue that the democarts don't as a majority agree on with the Church is abortion[/quote]
so, am I wrong to be Republican is my basic question

[Aloysius]

bump

[crusader1234]

Hey,

While I'm a democrat and a socialist (Burkefan and I already debated why this is bad/good), I think that its totally within the realm of Christendom to believe in the Republican economic structure - if you honestly believe what you and Raph have said.

Now personally, the biggest problem I have with Republican ideals economically is that it puts a little too much good faith in the average human. Now, if the average person had 10 grand kicking aorund, the vast majority of us wouldnt give it away. Chances are we wouldn't even give a few hundred dollars away, we'd buy ourselves a new TV and a computer and maybe take a trip. So in the end, with socialist governments ten thousand dollars gets narrowed down to about 3, but 3 is a lot more than most people would voluntarily give and its coming out of the pockets of every American. Do you understand what I'm getting at? If every Republican gave as much money as they could it would work, but they don't and are mainly concerned with the fact that tax breaks = more cash in the pocket.

I also think that hummers are a huge waste of money. If you wan't a seventy thousand dollar car, so be it (if your going to spend fifty thousand dollars more than you need to on a car you better be donating a fair bit as well mind you). But why on earth do people feel compelled to buy hummers, which are basically environment killing military vehicles? They arent even that fast or nice on the inside. The vast majority of the people who own hummers don't go off roading or even leave the city that often. Gimme a break.

[Aloysius]

if no one bought hummers the democrats would wine when Hummer lays off a bunch of manufacteuring jobs

that was my point.

I didn't wanna get into the whole environment thing though, so let's change it. What if it's an expensive house? If no one bought expensive houses, Real Estate Agents would all go poor. If no one bought expensive computers, computer makers would go poor. If no one bought cable, the cable guy would go poor. So on and so on.

In a socialistic society, people loose the incentive to work hard because everyone else will just end up with the majority of their money. I think capitalism makes more sense, on the basic principle of 2 Thes 3:10 the harder someone works, the better off they are. Their prosperity helps others because they patron others businesses. The real goal is to work to make sure everyone gets into the system of selling some service or good and thus they make money off of the rich without the government taking it from the rich and simply handing it to them even though they didn't earn it.

Does that make sense?

Pax

Edited July 5, 2004 by Aloysius

[Iacobus]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 3 2004, 07:20 PM'] so, am I wrong to be Republican is my basic question [/quote]
You are not wrong to be a GOPher. But you are wrong to support all of their polices and to not support all of the Rat's polices.

[quote]There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.
~Alexis de Tocqueville [/quote]



From my Diocean newspaper,

[quote]Her [A nun who ran a soup kitechen] advocay also extended to change in government policies towards the homeless.

One early effort in the mid-1980[']s involved a proposal from the Federal Goverment to deduct from a homeless person's elfare check the amount of aid recived from a food pantry.

The proposal was recinded a short time later after an outcry from the peace and justice people across the country, she recalled. "The diocese was very intimately involved in it. The diocese spearheaded the move that cut that terrible legislation before it took place.[/quote]

That leads me to think that the Catholic Diocese of Rockford seemed to think that welfare from the goverment WAS part of Catholic Social teaching. If they didn't think so why would the seek to stop, more than that they [i]spearheaded[/i] a movement to stop, a bill that would reduce welfare amounts? I see this as within Social Justice as did the Diocese.