Skuba Steve Plz Read.

[[jas]]

It's usually a lot more inflamed than that (ie, "STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT OUR CHURCH") or whatever, I'm just asking everyone to keep it cool. It's not our fault if we've heard something that's not true, and there's better ways to let us know it's not true than accuse us of spreading lies.

[[jas]]

And yeah, mulls, been a few days since anyone's pulled out the "we've been around the longest" one. Been missing it already. Nothing like a good solid argument like that to prove that they must be right...

[Dave]

It's usually a lot more inflamed than that (ie, "STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT OUR CHURCH") or whatever, I'm just asking everyone to keep it cool. It's not our fault if we've heard something that's not true, and there's better ways to let us know it's not true than accuse us of spreading lies.

But y'all could say, for example, "I've heard Catholics worship Mary. Is that true or not?" instead of "Why do you Catholics worship Mary?" The latter is very inflammatory, whether y'all realize it or not.

[ironmonk]

you just did it again....stop being so fanatical...

and no i don't have time to read it because im at work and should really be working....

...off to work now... ciao

ps.. I love you. 

Truth cannot contradict Truth.

No one is being fanatical, we have a reason for everything in our faith. As Christ tells us we must be prepared to give reason why we believe.

1 Peter 3:15

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,

Please read the whole article, and then maybe you will understand.

Rev. 3:16

So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Please do not reply and accuse unless you read the entire posts to you or replies to you... We read what you write, we expect the same from you.

The "Fanatical" comment is unfounded.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[[jas]]

No one is being fanatical, we have a reason for everything in our faith. As Christ tells us we must be prepared to give reason why we believe.

1 Peter 3:15

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,

Can I just quote the rest of that verse, for both sides to take heed of?

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

[Paladin D]

,Sep 1 2003, 12:05 AM] It's usually a lot more inflamed than that (ie, "STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT OUR CHURCH") or whatever, I'm just asking everyone to keep it cool. It's not our fault if we've heard something that's not true, and there's better ways to let us know it's not true than accuse us of spreading lies.

Agreed, I've been seeing that too.

[ironmonk]

,Sep 1 2003, 12:08 AM] And yeah, mulls, been a few days since anyone's pulled out the "we've been around the longest" one. Been missing it already. Nothing like a good solid argument like that to prove that they must be right...

Well, Jesus did build One Faith... not 34,000. And Jesus said that the Netherworld would never overcome that faith. Therefore the first Church, is the True Church. I know Christ cannot be wrong, and cannot lie.

It does mean quite a bit that the Catholic Church is the oldest and first.... All other churches that claim to be Christian do have some of the Truth, but they do not have all of the Truth.

The bible even prophesies that the groups of people will leave the church and take true believers out of the True Church. This is very clear with the reformation...

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

The Church built by Christ...

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus is speaking directly to Peter here, this english version has been translated 3 times... Originally in Aramaic (Kephas = rock)... Then the Greek were we get the different endings of 'Petros', one is masculine and one is feminine... following proper grammer they could not give Peter the feminine and that is why there is a differnence in the Greek to English... An Aramaic to English would read "...you are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my church..."

Peter's name in Aramaic was Kepha/Cephas as shown in John's Gospel and in Paul's letter to the Cornithians. Aramic is what was spoken and it means Rock.

John 1:42

Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

The argument that Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock is wrong.

John 21:15

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

Peter was the first Head Bishop of the Church founded by Christ.

St. Matt 28:18

Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

We believe that when Jesus said this to the Apostles, that the Church will always be around and in every Nation from the first Christians on... and that Jesus will always guide the Church... If Jesus is guiding the Church, then the official teaching of the Church cannot be wrong.

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

We believe that if someone rejects the Church after seeing the Truth, through their own fault, that they are denying Jesus. Now, say for example someone is baptist and honestly believes (through no fault of their own) that the baptist church is the Church that Jesus started, then they are Catholic by desire... They have the desire to know the truth and if they are taught that the lie is the truth, then it's not their fault. But, those who know that the Church built by Christ is the Catholic Church, and choose to reject the Catholic Church, are rejecting Jesus.

Jesus cannot be wrong, neither can His Church, because those who hear the Church, hear Jesus.

Matt 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

We believe that the True Church that Jesus built will be visable for all to see, that it has been visible since the time of the Apostles... The Catholic Church is the only Church that is 2000 years old... The Catholic Church is the "City set on a Mountain that cannot be hidden." All through history, the Catholic Church has been there, all other Christian churches are less than 500 years old and they do not have a unity of faith.

Ephesians 4:1

1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,

2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,

3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

What does the Bible say the Pillar and Truth is? - The Church...

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

What does the Church that Christ built look like?

It has Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They are often called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

It is hierarchical.

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 - Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. God gives His children authority.

Eph. 4:11 - Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church.

Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops (episcopoi) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests (presbuteroi) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons (diakonoi). His Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons.

It has the Body and Blood of Christ - The Real Presence

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." .....

......

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."

66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

The Church (Clergy - disciples) can forgive sins.

St John 20:21

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

St James 5:14

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"

It will never be overcome by the Netherworld, it will be like a city on a mountain for all time, it will be Guided by Christ; it will even speak for Christ - It will have ONE Faith.

St. Matt 16:18

St. John 21:15 - 19

St. Matt 28:18-20

St. Matt 5:13 - 15

Ephesians 4:1 - 6

Only One Church, One Faith... has been around almost 2000 years and can fit what the Church in the Bible "looks" like... it can be seen today...

The Catholic Church.... built by Christ, on Peter and the Apostles.

Revelation 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:20

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Those who gave us the Canon of the NT know it better than anyone that came around over 1100 years after the canonization.

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther

The Canon of the NT came from the following Catholic Councils:

Council of Carthage 397

Council of Hippo 393

Canon of Nicaea 325

The first Christian writings outside of the New Testament, all affirm the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the same Church today as it was in 33 AD. The Church has always taught the same morals and faith.

With 2000 years of study, the Church has the strongest understanding of the Christian faith.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,

ironmonk

PS Please do not reply unless you read this entire post.

[ironmonk]

bump

[skuba steve]

if somebody proclaimed lies about what I believe in I wouldn't shoot them..

i would be genuinely sad that that is the impression being given out.

i wouldn't put down their beliefs because that would insult their whole life and all their values and it would be an insult to their identity that is based on those beliefs.

to say that what they believe in is wrong is to take away everything that their character is built on.

if i did that bit ok, maybe they would respect me enough to hear me out.

other wise they would think i was a self-centred, judgemental, egocentrical, communist loser who doesn't have one ounce of love in my heart for anyone different to me.

Now put yourself in those shoes....

find a quote from me that says EVERYTHING that you believe in is wrong and then you can bash what i believe in all you like.

To say that you are greater than me is to say that you are greater than God for I am made in his own image.

[[jas]]

communist

I really don't see what a political regime has to do with anything else in your post.;

:P

[ironmonk]

if somebody proclaimed lies about what I believe in I wouldn't shoot them..

i would be genuinely sad that that is the impression being given out.

i wouldn't put down their beliefs because that would insult their whole life and all their values and it would be an insult to their identity that is based on those beliefs.

to say that what they believe in is wrong is to take away everything that their character is built on.

if i did that bit ok, maybe they would respect me enough to hear me out.

other wise they would think i was a self-centred, judgemental, egocentrical, communist loser who doesn't have one ounce of love in my heart for anyone different to me.

Now put yourself in those shoes....

find a quote from me that says EVERYTHING that you believe in is wrong and then you can bash what i believe in all you like.

To say that you are greater than me is to say that you are greater than God for I am made in his own image.

Maybe you should read the posts.

NOTHING is bashing.

It simply states facts... with Scripture and historical evidence.

Truth is not subject to "feelings"...

There can be only one Truth.

If I am wrong, correct me, that is how we come closer to Christ.

If one is to correct someone, they must present facts...

You have part of the Truth... why don't you want the whole Truth about Christ and His Church?

Open your heart to Christ, and learn the full Truth.

Those who love Christ, love the truth, and will seek out the truth, even if it goes against what they were first taught.

Examine what is here, get the facts, then make a choice.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[skuba steve]

you are bashing me again.

[marielapin]

sheesh if that is bashing I am bashed every day by my boss, my husband, my mother, and my friends when they challenge me or tell me what I did was wrong. Maybe they should just not tell me that I am being an ass sometimes and let me fall in my own holes.

[marielapin]

I must admit, Ironmonk does come across as gruff, but he's far from being heartless. If he didn't care, he wouldn't be here. Some people on this board have reasons for their intensity. Please don't take intensity as bashing. It is not. If you would like to see bashing on boards I know of a couple I can refer you too. That was not meant as an insult, by the way. Only, I've come across many boards where people have a total lack of respect for each other. Even though you may not think so right now, this is not one of them. :D We are just Catholics and even though we speak English we do speak a different language.

I know, because I wasn't always Catholic.

I'm glad you are here, Steve. I haven't posted on the Debate table for a long time, whenever I do I like to put a lot of time and effort into my posts. People like Ironmonk and Dave do put a lot of effort into their posts. At the very least you shouldn't ever feel like you are overlooked or ignored. :lol:

[cmotherofpirl]

you are bashing me again.

Maybe steve you should give us your definition of "bashing".

Obviously it is not the same as ours.