Philippe Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 plus... to be a mortal sin dont u have 2 know it is a sin? maybe kerry doesnt even know its not good to be pro-choice... who knows we need to give him the benefit of the doubt and to not judge him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted July 2, 2004 Author Share Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='lifeteener' date='Jul 1 2004, 11:41 PM'] maybe kerry doesnt even know its not good to be pro-choice [/quote] I wish he didn't know, lol. But by the fact he invented Pope I think he knows and is trying to defend himself. Note to Mr. Kerry, be pro choice, the defense is easier that way. But I still allow for him to be forgive and to change his mind. I don't put that byond him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurkeFan Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 (edited) [quote name='lifeteener' date='Jul 1 2004, 11:41 PM'] plus... to be a mortal sin dont u have 2 know it is a sin? maybe kerry doesnt even know its not good to be pro-choice... who knows we need to give him the benefit of the doubt and to not judge him [/quote] If Kerry doesn't know that abortion and supporting abortion is a mortal sin, I'd jump out of a window. Anyhow, even if he truly doesn't know, he should know, and so, his ignorance is not invincible. Iacobus, I think with the case of Kerry, it becomes a little more complex, since he has praised abortion as something we should be proud of. I just don't think that the apparently compassionate thing to do in giving the person communion is the actually compassionate thing to do. Edit: Iacobus, I do agree on allow Kerry to be forgiven and to mend his ways, and in all sincerity, I hope and pray that that happens. But I fear that it may not, and it will certainly not if his position is treated as acceptable and orthodox. In Christ, Dave Edited July 2, 2004 by BurkeFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Just FYI, a Priest can deny Holy Communion to anyone whom he thinks he should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='BurkeFan' date='Jul 2 2004, 12:07 AM'] Indeed, were John Kerry to make a full and good confession and firmly intend, with the help of God, to mend his ways, then there would be no obstacles to communion in one sense, but until his has publicly stated that he would change his ways, there is still the obstacle of public scandal. [/quote] [font="Courier"]I would think a public statement would be a fitting penance If you want to live in error – that is one thing… but spreading error is a very big deal. That’s why politicians and other public figures are held to a higher standard. [/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Someone has to draw the line at stopping what is public scandal. "Conscience Catholicism" doesn't cut the mustard with serious issues like this. Most of all, the Eucharist is not something that is "owed" to us. It isn't a "right" for just anybody. It is a privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 I don't like letting them come to Mass and then rejecting them at communion. I think they should be excommunicated instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted July 2, 2004 Author Share Posted July 2, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Jul 2 2004, 01:43 PM'] I don't like letting them come to Mass and then rejecting them at communion. I think they should be excommunicated instead. [/quote] Thedude, canon law in the Church has been more about bringing people who are fighting the Church back to the Church. The Church doesn't want to expell someone and leave them damned, her goal is to save them. She wants to re-educate them and return them to the Church. Therefore, in this case, I think outright excom would be bad. LD, that would be a workable peance. LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 (edited) The reason I say that is that I don't think the Church's rules allow people to be barred from communion so excommunication is the only way of keeping them from receiving, if that's what the Church wants. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/502102.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/502102.htm[/url] Edited July 3, 2004 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurkeFan Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Thedude, Canon Law does allow for the prohibition of Communion without excommunication. What you cited from Thomas just states that the Church can and sometimes should excommunicate people. Iacobus - Excommunication can be a loving action. It's much like kicking a rebellious, wayward teenager out of the house, it can ultimately be the best thing for them. If Kerry keeps thinking he can delight over the slaughter of innocents and recieve the Body and Blood of Our Lord, then, he should be excommunicated, and hopefully that will get the point across to him. In Christ, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted July 3, 2004 Author Share Posted July 3, 2004 Yeh I guess that could happen. But I just can't see Mr. Kerry doing what one of the kings did (before the British split one of the kings stood outside the Pope's resdince in the snow for two weeks begging to be let back into the Church after being excomed). So yeh excom can be meant as a healing act, but it appears to be a drasitic and final act. At least that is how it would be covered. Which would not only make a scandal for Kerry but also for the Church (appears to be disreagrading teachings on forgiveness). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurkeFan Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 Iacobus, you seem really focused on how the Church is perceived and it's PR. We're not here to be liked. Geez, in some senses, anti-Catholicism is a sign that we're doing something right! We have to take the steps that we know are right, for we have too long been controlled by secular interests. I for one pray that the Church does not run away in fear of being percieved poorly by the secularists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:45 PM'] Yeh I guess that could happen. But I just can't see Mr. Kerry doing what one of the kings did (before the British split one of the kings stood outside the Pope's resdince in the snow for two weeks begging to be let back into the Church after being excomed). So yeh excom can be meant as a healing act, but it appears to be a drasitic and final act. At least that is how it would be covered. Which would not only make a scandal for Kerry but also for the Church (appears to be disreagrading teachings on forgiveness). [/quote] Excommunication isn't drastic nor is it a final option. It's the penalty set down by Canon Law, which is to be followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 2 2004, 11:45 PM'] Yeh I guess that could happen. But I just can't see Mr. Kerry doing what one of the kings did (before the British split one of the kings stood outside the Pope's resdince in the snow for two weeks begging to be let back into the Church after being excomed). So yeh excom can be meant as a healing act, but it appears to be a drasitic and final act. At least that is how it would be covered. Which would not only make a scandal for Kerry but also for the Church (appears to be disreagrading teachings on forgiveness). [/quote] excommunication doesn't bring scandal to the Church iacobus, it rids Herself of it. if your hand is what causes you to sin, rid of it. yes, your right the Church teaches forgiveness, but She also teachs and models the Fullness of Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 2 2004, 05:42 PM'] Thedude, canon law in the Church has been more about bringing people who are fighting the Church back to the Church. The Church doesn't want to expell someone and leave them damned, her goal is to save them. She wants to re-educate them and return them to the Church. Therefore, in this case, I think outright excom would be bad. [/quote] How does keeping them in the Church and allowing them to receive Holy Communion not hurt the person? I think that to continue the Blessed Sacrament in the state of a mortal sin is a good way to bring damnation on yourself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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