Impeach abortion

[little2add]

13 hours ago, Lea said:

There is a different indeed, yet not in their right to life. 

 

in the last year only a handful of wicked men convicted of brutal "heynis" crimes against humanity were executed in a humane and painless way, wile at the same time over 800,000 living human beings in the womb were brutally,  painfully torn from their mothers body and disposed of in the garbage or there body parts sold to the highest bidder.

 

 

 

a different indeed

 

[Guest]

 

The reason I try to avoid threads on abortion is that they always wind up in what in Australia we call "a slinging match" or "one upmanship" (mea maxima culpa) and at times using language marked by violence.   It is very sad indeed that charity with respect and a witness of brotherly love (mea maxima culpa), seems to go out the window on vitally important issues to Catholicism (and others) like the abortion and euthanasia issues.  Perhaps it is why the anti abortion and pro-life issues are so unsuccessful rather often.

We lost on a society level with birth control and exactly the same problems re relating to each other persisted back then often in general discussion/debate on the issue.

Quote

 

"Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.   I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing"  John Chapter 15

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth." Corinthians Chapter 13.

 

I certainly fail totally to hit the marks/qualities of Love all the time, but now and then I manage (Laudate Dominum) to hit one quality of Love .......... or two or more.......... maybe............ if I am exceptionally blest and carried and do not resist.

Quote

"Even to your old age I am the same, even when your hair is gray I will bear you; It is I who have done this, I who will continue, and I who will carry you to safety."  Isaiah 46

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by BarbaraTherese

[Lea]

11 hours ago, little2add said:

a different indeed

Before I try to leave this conversation let me please just point out that we are talking about a fundamental question.

Usually I'm not the person who likes to sort in binary systems, but here I see two options:

A) There are circumstances under which killing a human being is allowed.

B) The fundamental right to live is not be questioned. 

 

Have a nice day.

[little2add]

May the Saint Michael the Archangel and the heavenly host Protect us and save us from the evil On earth as it is in heaven.  

Our Father

Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

[Guest]

Amen

[little2add]

 

[little2add]

liberal logic

[Anastasia13]

On 3/11/2020 at 7:33 PM, Lilllabettt said:

Here's the reason. Because it's gross.

When someone says "black lives matter" only a turd responds "all lives matter." But isn't it true that 'all lives matter'? Yes. But now we are talking about black lives, so turds should shut it. 

There are SO many people under 30 trying to turn the prolife movement into an "all lives matter" movement. And its 100% lame. Don't get it twisted now - all lives do matter. But we don't expect anyone to mention fetal rights at a protest against the death penalty. Why not? Think about it. If your reaction to someone denouncing abortion, or racism, or the death penalty is some form of whataboutism, as in "true, but" ... just go wash your hair man. 

When someone tries to make policies that take care of black lives while also addressing where police might be more vulnerable in some communities, they seem more convincing that they care about a practical application of the intent behind black lives matter than just their own single-minded cause. Rare is the day I have ever in my life heard a pro-lifer talk about making adoption more available (I think this came up once on a tv program in a profile show or a movie), and even more frequent is the opposition to making programs to help single moms and moms in distress because that would only cause them to spend their lives leaching off of the system or wasting other taxpayers dollars. ANY pro-life group I have ever heard in my life gives only and exclusively the answer to such women as those in high school, those who have had severe post-pardom depression, those in major financial need, and those who feared for their safety if they gave birth, was that they had to give birth anyway. I have longed for the day I would ever hear a pro-life group offer much practical consideration to the reasons why someone would support abortion (besides those limited to the belief that a fetus doesn't matter). Most of the political groups, at least around me, that would traditional identify as pro-life answer that any program to help those whose challenges keep them from having to live in poverty for the rest of their careers (unless they marry well) would just cause them to be leaches off of the system or dismiss them as already being leaches on the system. I know several pro-choice people whose stance is based on things I have brought up here and whose stance would likely change if the real life examples of these had solutions. Pro-life people never publicly address these in high profile pro-life work. Why? Shouldn't blue lives matter and black lives matter find a way to co-exist in support of life because both have meaningful contributions to public policy?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Anastasia13

[little2add]

The thing about feticide that is so sinful is the lack of faith that a fetus is alive, a human being with a soul, not just a blob of cells.

It is scientific fact that a fetus is a living individual of the species Homo sapiens, the same kind of being as us, only at an earlier stage of development. Each of us was once a zygote, embryo, and fetus, just as we were once infants, toddlers, and adolescents.

Life matters

[little2add]

The notion that pro lifers don’t care or support human life after birth is another separate argument altogether.

a straw-dog if you will. 

[Lilllabettt]

On 4/12/2020 at 5:21 PM, Anastasia13 said:

When someone tries to make policies that take care of black lives while also addressing where police might be more vulnerable in some communities, they seem more convincing that they care about a practical application of the intent behind black lives matter than just their own single-minded cause. Rare is the day I have ever in my life heard a pro-lifer talk about making adoption more available (I think this came up once on a tv program in a profile show or a movie), and even more frequent is the opposition to making programs to help single moms and moms in distress because that would only cause them to spend their lives leaching off of the system or wasting other taxpayers dollars. ANY pro-life group I have ever heard in my life gives only and exclusively the answer to such women as those in high school, those who have had severe post-pardom depression, those in major financial need, and those who feared for their safety if they gave birth, was that they had to give birth anyway. I have longed for the day I would ever hear a pro-life group offer much practical consideration to the reasons why someone would support abortion (besides those limited to the belief that a fetus doesn't matter). Most of the political groups, at least around me, that would traditional identify as pro-life answer that any program to help those whose challenges keep them from having to live in poverty for the rest of their careers (unless they marry well) would just cause them to be leaches off of the system or dismiss them as already being leaches on the system. I know several pro-choice people whose stance is based on things I have brought up here and whose stance would likely change if the real life examples of these had solutions. Pro-life people never publicly address these in high profile pro-life work. Why? Shouldn't blue lives matter and black lives matter find a way to co-exist in support of life because both have meaningful contributions to public policy?

Here are some ideas:

1.  Actual poverty is when you must walk 2 hrs every day to fetch a clean bucket of water, there is a shallow hole by the road where you may defecate, and none of your children above the age of 8 go to school because they must work to eat. Roughly 1 billion people live this way, none of them in the US. The idea that abortion might be justified because a woman is/will be living in the "relative poverty" of the US is effing RIDICULOUS.  Poor people don't have to die so that those slightly above them on the ladder have better lives. Better meaning: 2 days off vs 6- 7 days of menial labor, an in unit washer and dryer Vs. the laundromat, separate bedrooms vs all in one bedroom; antenna tv vs basic cable. We can afford a night out at chipotle instead of taco (so tasty) bell, and all it cost was my unborn child's life! Yay! Even entertaining this rationale as legitimate is disgusting. It degrades women to even suggest they make an economic calculation and decide to kill their child because of cashflow. That's one reason "prolife leadership" doesn't address it, because it's ridiculous and disgusting.  

2. Theres zero evidence such a tactic "works." Sweden, with it's democratic socialist and pro natalist policies has a higher abortion rate than America.  Europeans of all kinds kill their offspring by the millions every year. Here in the US the abortion rate goes down every year regardless of which party has control, for many reasons but mostly because it's harder and and harder to get one. Some women are "too poor" to cross state lines and get one (boo hoo). Poor women know many other poor women who successful give birth and/or raise children. Poor families across the world are extremely confused by the idea that they can't afford to have kids as their experience is the opposite.  In the end poor women get abortions for the same reason rich women do: Because it provides immediate gratification for the problems of being pregnant and because they can.  

3. Adoption is EXTREMELY accessible to expecting mothers. For every newborn made available for adoption there are between 20 and 36 families waiting for a child. A birth mother can expect to receive $5-20k in living expenses plus medical bills paid. Newborns are immediately or almost immediately adopted - no matter their race, class or disability.  Even babies that are born addicted to drugs are quickly adopted. The myth that babies are languishing waiting to be adopted is a pro choice to kill fantasy.  Of course, many women would prefer to kill their offspring rather than place for adoption, because "it would hurt too much." Boo hoo and all. 

 

 

[Norseman82]

There are differences between abortion and the death penalty. 

1)  Abortion is an intrinsic evil, with latae sententiae excommunication penalties in canon law.  The death penalty, when the guilt is established beyond a reasonable doubt  (and beyond), is not; in fact, the Church admits it allowed it in the past, and God Himself commanded it in certain cases because the offender has "forfeited his life". 

2)  There is a difference between innocence and guilt. 

Also, the whole "seamless garment" theory was a risk that failed; instead of succeeding in bringing liberals into the pro-life camp, it diluted the pro-life movement's focus from abortion / infanticide / euthanasia and gave cover to Catholics who supported abortion to appeal to pro-lifers by making it appear they are pro-life even though they are pro-abortion. 

[Anastasia13]

On 4/13/2020 at 4:07 AM, little2add said:

The notion that pro lifers don’t care or support human life after birth is another separate argument altogether.

a straw-dog if you will. 

Not meant to detract from the fact that abortion is wrong, but being vocal about solutions to issues would help activate people I know or have known on the issue. I mostly hear pro-life activists disregard those as almost as though they were offensive to bring up and never speak on it except to say that it doesn’t matter. If you prefer, we can discuss in a different thread. I cannot be the only face of pro-life that those people see.

[Lea]

39 minutes ago, Anastasia13 said:

Not meant to detract from the fact that abortion is wrong, but being vocal about solutions to issues would help activate people I know or have known on the issue. I mostly hear pro-life activists disregard those as almost as though they were offensive to bring up and never speak on it except to say that it doesn’t matter. If you prefer, we can discuss in a different thread. I cannot be the only face of pro-life that those people see.

You are not alone  

[little2add]

2 hours ago, Anastasia13 said:

offensive to bring up

or you could be making excuses to justify  bad behavior