Catholic Church incompetant

[little2add]

If the shepherd fails to looks after  his flock and attend to it, the wolves of the world will rule and the Shepherd And his flock will suffer and die.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, little2add said:

If the shepherd fails to looks after  his flock and attend to it, the wolves of the world will rule and the Shepherd And his flock will suffer and die.  

We know that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" (Matthew Ch16) against The Church.  The Head and Shepherd of The Church is Jesus through the power of The Holy Spirit and to the Glory of The Father.

Our hierarchy are His appointed shepherds on earth and we know now in a terrible way that they can fail us.  But Jesus never will and so His Church will continue despite the attacks of Hell.  It may not continue in a form we now would recognize, nor perhaps to any of our expectations and anticipations.  But His Church will never fall and fail completely to the attacks of Hell.

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, while still a priest I think, in his book "Faith and The Future" : https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/spiritual-life/the-church-will-become-small.html

"The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members....

It will be hard-going for the Church, for......"........Read more on above link.  Fr Ratzinger may not be spot on, or alternatively, he could be spot on.  His book, however, does illustrate that The Church as hierarchy etc. as we know it today may not persevere into the future.  He continues: "The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means
certain . . . But .."......Read more on above link.

To my way of thought, I am not therefore surprised at what is happening in The Church today.  Disturbed by it all and horrified - but not taken completely by surprise at what is happening now or may happen in the future.

I mean if our bishops on the eve of the French Revolution thought it smart to deny God's Very Existence, nothing really should surprise I don't think.  We can forget that our hierarchy remain weak mortal men, Graced stunningly by their vocation, but still weak and mortal.

AND

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https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-fears-catholic-church-worst-enemy-sin-article-1.183697  "Pope Benedict XVI told reporters on Tuesday that its greatest threat is likely not some outside force, but "sin within the Church," Reuters reported.

"Today we see in a truly terrifying way that the greatest persecution of the Church does not come from enemies on the outside, but is born of the sin within the Church," he told reporters while on a plane to Portugal, in response to a question about the child sex abuse scandal.

But, he noted, "forgiveness is not a substitute for justice."

 

We can forget that our own sins add to a weakening of The Church:

 

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https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/01/03/confess-your-own-sins-not-other-peoples-pope-francis-says/ "Fear and the shame of admitting one’s own sins leads to pointing fingers and accusing others rather than recognising one’s own faults, Pope Francis has said."

 

[little2add]

On 11/30/2019 at 10:08 PM, Dogtag said:

Jesus has called us all to a life of extraordinary holiness. Yet there are so few living saints. Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

 

 

The Parable of the Wedding Feast.

Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying,2“The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast* for his son.3* He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come.4A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’5Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business.6b The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.7* The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.8Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come.9Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’10The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike,* and the hall was filled with guests.11* But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.12He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence.13* c Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’14Many are invited, but few are chosen

[Guest]

9 hours ago, little2add said:

  On 12/1/2019 at 1:38 PM, Dogtag said:

Jesus has called us all to a life of extraordinary holiness. Yet there are so few living saints. Most don't even think that being a saint (or the closest thing to it that is possible) in this life is even an option. How did we get to the place where everyone is planning for purgatory and not going for the great prize now? Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

Generalisations. 

I think that there is holiness in The Church, meaning holy people.  Holy people who strive to live a Gospel life in union with Jesus and who Hope for Heaven - but might be humbly aware that they might need Purgatory before Heaven.   

Actually aiming for Purgatory is another matter entirely and I certainly have never met someone who had that aim.  It seems to me it could be a matter of presumption and always serious.

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Why is the Church unable to teach people how to actually fulfill the promises of Christ?

Again, a generalisation.  

[Guest]

I do tend to think that in the main our hierarchy is out of touch with the ordinary everyday lives of ordinary everyday Catholics and hence do not have hands on experience to understand the why's and wherefore's of the problems of everyday people, the sheep they are called to shepherd, whom today we know are struggling and missing the mark in a big way.

Our hierarchy are called not only to shepherd the flock but also "preach the Gospel to every creature".

 

[Guest]

I did get some insight into hierarchical thinking when I was asked (Aust Catholic Bishops Conference) to contribute a good news story re mental illness for a newsletter going out to the parishes.

I advised that I had a story, but it was not good news.  The response was that they wanted only good news stories as any bad news might discourage parishes.  I was astounded, gobsmacked, speechless.........nay, horrified!  I voiced my disposition and why to no direction changing avail, of course.......wrongly and very sadly in my book.

I do wonder if this is what is happening and has happened in Catholicism today.  We are receiving only the 'good' news (not the full Good News) without acknowledging that Heaven awaits for sure, but so does Hell.  The Good News of Scripture is that we are saved and no longer mandatorily Hell destined.  Heaven is opened for us all.   We can still choose Hell, however, through mortal sin.  Our free will remains intact fully.

Not only is Hell hardly ever mentioned in Catholic thought, I also tend to think that Catholics have a poor understanding of mortal sin.  It is many years since I have heard the word Hell from a pulpit.  Hence, we are being preached and receive only half the good news.

Often grave matter is adjudged as another term for mortal sin.  The two are totally different in nature while one can be a factor of the other.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Guest]

The First Reading at Mass this morning was a real consolation at a time of disturbance, confusion and scandal in The Church.  It has rather reminded me of the prophecy of Pope Benedict in his book Faith and The Future, from which I have quoted already:

First reading - Isaiah 41:13-20 

I, the Holy One of Israel, am your redeemer

I, the Lord, your God,

I am holding you by the right hand;

I tell you, ‘Do not be afraid,

I will help you.’

Do not be afraid, Jacob, poor worm,

Israel, puny mite.

I will help you – it is the Lord who speaks –

the Holy One of Israel is your redeemer.

See, I turn you into a threshing-sled,

new, with doubled teeth;

you shall thresh and crush the mountains,

and turn the hills to chaff.

You shall winnow them and the wind will blow them away,

the gale will scatter them.

But you yourself will rejoice in the Lord,

and glory in the Holy One of Israel.

The poor and needy ask for water, and there is none,

their tongue is parched with thirst.

I, the Lord, will answer them,

I, the God of Israel, will not abandon them.

I will make rivers well up on barren heights,

and fountains in the midst of valleys;

turn the wilderness into a lake,

and dry ground into water spring.

In the wilderness I will put cedar trees,

acacias, myrtles, olives.

In the desert I will plant juniper,

plane tree and cypress side by side;

so that men may see and know,

may all observe and understand

that the hand of the Lord has done this,

that the Holy One of Israel has created it.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[little2add]

On 12/2/2019 at 6:51 PM, Dogtag said:

Fair enough. Why is the Church in America so pusillanimous?

Actually the opposite is true.  

 

 

US Catholic priests are beset by overwork, isolation, scandals.  
Weighing on the entire Catholic clergy in the U.S. is the ripple effect of their church's long-running crisis arising from sex abuse committed by priests. It's caused many honorable priests to sense an erosion of public support and to question the leadership of some of their bishops. That dismay is often compounded by increased workloads due to the priest shortage, and increased isolation as multi-priest parishes grow scarce.

look how many parishes in your area have closed or consolidated due to the lack of available priest and ever dwindling parishioners attending weekly mass

Pray for  the royal priesthood, pray for our holy nation

JMJ

Source: https://www.dailyherald.com/article/20191209/news/312099954 

Edited December 14, 2019 by little2add

[Guest]

Well said.  We have the same problem in Australia.  The one difference I have noted is that I am attending a weekday Mass in a parish lead by a religious order of priests.  Sunday Mass (when I was able to get there) is crowded and weekday Mass is well attended.  The other factor of note is that there is a large Italian and Filipino presence.

I wonder if the support of a community helps individual priests.   Community life can be challenging - while at the same time a great support.   I wonder too if diocesan priests living a more community life rather than being isolated in particular parishes might be the future.

14 hours ago, little2add said:

Pray for  the royal priesthood, pray for our holy nation

Amen

[penitent60]

On 12/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, Dogtag said:

Fair enough. Why is the Church in America so pusillanimous?

Pusillanimosity is not confined to one country. There are saints all about you. They are quiet and mostly so ordinary tobe almost invisible. Saints are those who make a difference in their little circles of family and friends and neighbourhoods. Saints live their faith, by doing....by their kindness, compassionate guidance.

[chrysostom]

There are indeed saints about us. For many of them it's probably helpful not to receive the recognition of the world before they die.

[Luigi]

Here's the other thing. If you believe that the Catholic Church is the mystical Body of Christ and is led by the Holy Spirit, then calling the Church incompetent is equivalent to calling the Holy Spirit incompetent. Personally, I don't have the temerity to do that.

The church has survived for two millenia. There are numerous examples of corrupt popes, incompetent bishops, worldly priests, inept abbots, decadent mothers superior, and mean nuns who in taught grade school. You can find them in every country, in all periods of history. But the Church has survived them through the grace and guidance of God.

To me, one of the proofs that the Church is, in fact, led by the Holy Spirit is that the church hierarchy (at any level from the pope to the sister in the classroom) is imperfect human beings. The Church is so large and so diverse that no one person (a pope, for instance) nor any organization (a curia, for instance) could possibly manage all of it. But that's the point - the Church is not a corporation to be managed like a business or industry. It's an aggregation of imperfect people trying to live in imitation of Christ. We don't all succeed, at least not the perfectly. So it's got to be the Holy Spirit that's doing the heavy lifting.

[Dogtag]

There is a difference between the institutional church and the mystical body of Christ. It doesn't make any sense to equivocate the two. The Church is holy, yet our institution is full of sinners. It exists to propagate the gospel, yet on occasion it has hid pedophile priests. It is the mouthpiece of the holy spirit but so so many bishops over the years have been corrupt. These statements don't contradict each other. The institution is finite, fallible, and other wise bears all the traits associated with human limitation, and frankly it is often not proficient at their job. 

[little2add]

There is a difference between “the Father”, “the Son” and “the Holy Spirit”

but it is still “One”

[Dogtag]

The unity of the Trinity is far different from the unity of the Church. The unity of the Trinity is eternal, it cannot be breached. The institution on earth is not fully united with the glorious mystical Body of Christ. It is composed of sinners whose vision of the truth is marred by personal ambition, political aims, personal prejudice, limited philosophies etc. There is of course a lot of good in the Church; that is also an important point to make. Seriously though, in this era of sex abuse scandals how can anyone actually think that the institutional Church is a perfect reflection of the Body of Christ? Anybody who has studied any Catholic history knows that corruption and abuse is a relevant component of every era.  To say this doesn't make one a heretic, it is to speak the truth. If we are to make progress we have to push forward and with the help of God's grace integrate the gospel into our lives. Progress is not found in creating an idol out of Church leadership. We cannot assume that the institution will do the job, rather we must take responsibility in making the gospel known.