cmotherofpirl Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 If you are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church [all of it, not just the parts you like] you can not go wrong. Trads who diss the Pope or Church are like little kids playing with their friends, if they can't have their own way they pick up their toys and stamp home. I expect this of little kids, but not adults. If everyone who stamps off went back to their home parish, joined the liturgy committee, and the CCD committee and the adult education committee, the youth group committee, parish council etc things would improve greatly for all Catholics in all parishes. Taking over a liberal modernist off the wall parish is far more important in the long run than stamping off to your own little conclave. Luther stamped off , St Francis of Assisi stayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote]Luther stamped off, St Francis of Assisi stayed.[/quote] I like that. A ton. lol, awesome quote cmom, I agree absolutely 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt with the whole thing. Orthodoxy forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 1 2004, 01:46 PM'] If you are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church [all of it, not just the parts you like] you can not go wrong. [/quote] I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it means that you are faithful to every dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church, then I agree. If you mean that one must accept every word that comes out of the Pope's mouth, then I disagree. Any number of Popes have said scandalous, immoral, and even heretical things, and no one has ever been obligated to abide by them. John XXII's teaching about the beatific vision was objectively false, and if laymen had not stood up to him he might have never repented and probably would have gone to hell. Urban VI's pastoral strategy was a disaster, and if St. Catherine of Sienna had not rebuked him he might never have changed. Lastly, St. Peter's actions in denying table fellowship to Gentile Christians were injurious to the salvation of souls, and if St. Paul had not rebuked him Christianity might never have gotten off the ground. If you do not believe that these people were wrong to resist the Pope than you have absolutely no grounds for condemning traditionalists who do the same to the current Pontiff. You are applying a double standard, and the only reason you are doing so is because of the neo-Catholic penchant for slavishly defending everything John Paul II says and does. Well, real love does not confirm people in their sin. Real love calls a spade a spade, and does everything in its power to advance the good of the beloved. If you really love John Paul II, instead of attacking anyone who criticises him, you should [color=red][Edited by dUSt: Please re-read the phorum guidelines][/color] As you can probably gather, if I were going to leave the Church becasue I couldn't have things my way, I would have left a long time ago. I am not. Rather I am going to keep praying for the Church and for John Paul II, and working for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. I will do my best to imitate Ss. Paul, Athanasius, and Catherine, as they imitate Christ. If this includes resisting the Pope, so be it. Edited July 1, 2004 by dUSt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Excellent post, hananiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 1, 2004 Author Share Posted July 1, 2004 There are proper ways to "stand up to the pope". Posting on Internet message boards and slandering his name is not exactly the most saintly method for doing so, and will not be tolerated here. I'm sure we'd all love to see a copy of the letter you've sent to your local bishop, or to the proper contacts at the Vatican. Have you received a response yet from those sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 1 2004, 03:46 PM'] There are proper ways to "stand up to the pope". Posting on Internet message boards and slandering his name is not exactlt the most saintly method for doing so, and will not be tolerated here. I'm sure we'd all love to see a copy of the letter you've sent to your local bishop, or to the proper contacts at the Vatican. Have you received a response yet from those sources? [/quote] Two quick things: First, I agree that slandering the name of the Pope is evil. Slandering anyone’s name is evil, even more so when it is the Pope. However, discussing the morality of public acts is doing no such thing, so long as it is done charitably and for the right reasons, namely so that such public acts, if immoral, are not emulated. Second, I have written letters and only once did I get one back. It was from one of the bishop's henchmen and said absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I didn't realize bishops had henchmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Mine does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 1 2004, 04:22 PM'] I'm not sure what you mean by that. If it means that you are faithful to every dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church, then I agree. If you mean that one must accept every word that comes out of the Pope's mouth, then I disagree. Any number of Popes have said scandalous, immoral, and even heretical things, and no one has ever been obligated to abide by them. John XXII's teaching about the beatific vision was objectively false, and if laymen had not stood up to him he might have never repented and probably would have gone to hell. Urban VI's pastoral strategy was a disaster, and if St. Catherine of Sienna had not rebuked him he might never have changed. Lastly, St. Peter's actions in denying table fellowship to Gentile Christians were injurious to the salvation of souls, and if St. Paul had not rebuked him Christianity might never have gotten off the ground. If you do not believe that these people were wrong to resist the Pope than you have absolutely no grounds for condemning traditionalists who do the same to the current Pontiff. You are applying a double standard, and the only reason you are doing so is because of the neo-Catholic penchant for slavishly defending everything John Paul II says and does. Well, real love does not confirm people in their sin. Real love calls a spade a spade, and does everything in its power to advance the good of the beloved. If you really love John Paul II, instead of attacking anyone who criticises him, you should [color=red][Edited by dUSt: Please re-read the phorum guidelines][/color] As you can probably gather, if I were going to leave the Church becasue I couldn't have things my way, I would have left a long time ago. I am not. Rather I am going to keep praying for the Church and for John Paul II, and working for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. I will do my best to imitate Ss. Paul, Athanasius, and Catherine, as they imitate Christ. If this includes resisting the Pope, so be it. [/quote] In general we are not talking about a past Pope, but our current Holy Father. I always find it amazing that people on message boards act like they are qualified to judge the Holy Father actions. Of course they must be actual flys on his office wall to know all the details, actual behavior and apparent motives of the man. I don't know too many flys with docterates in philosophy, theology and history living in the Vatican that have internet access, but I guess they are out there. After reading some stuff on open mic I see hell has internet access, so I guess anything is possible. It is one thing to say I am confused by a recent news report of something the Holy father supposedly did and I will seek clarification. It is another thing to say the Pope is a heretic or commits heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 1 2004, 02:29 PM'] I take a more Balthasarian attitude towards John Paul II. He *might* be a heretic, though since no one can judge the Pope but another Pope, no one will know his status for certain unless either a future Pope declares him to be a heretic, or he gets canonized (which, obviously, would mean that he isn't). [/quote] He MIGHT be a heretic? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Unless, heaven forbid, another pope declared our Holy Father a heretic, we shouldn't entertain such ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Hananiah' date='Jul 1 2004, 02:22 PM'] Rather I am going to keep praying for the Church and for John Paul II, and working for the glory of God and the salvation of souls. I will do my best to imitate Ss. Paul, Athanasius, and Catherine, as they imitate Christ. If this includes resisting the Pope, so be it. [/quote] Is that why you wish to imitate such wonderful saints? Because they specifically resisted a pope? They NEVER denied those popes weren't TRUE popes. They never spoke with such dislike for a man who was an Alter Christus and in the position of leading Christ's Church. The situations then are much different now. No two situations are the same, neither are any Popes are the same. Our Current Holy Father is human, he is not God, but to call him a *might* (be) heretic? Wow, that sounds really intelligent. It sounds like namecalling (slander) to me. That is really sad. He is a great and holy man and I love him. You seem to think that those who do love our current Pontiff are unintelligent and blinded. I love our Pope John Paul II, but to call him a heretic on a messageboard reduces this to nothing but a mudslinging. I only pity those who can't see what a great man he is. Edited July 1, 2004 by jmjtina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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