i got married!

[JHFamily]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

The problem is that the current Catechism, and subsequent teachings by Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis, update these teachings to make conjugal love and support co-equal with procreation as a purpose of marriage.

I do not agree with this, and to support my opinion I propose Paragraph  1641 of the CCC:

The grace of the sacrament of Matrimony

1641

“By reason of their state in life and of their order, [Christian spouses] have their own special gifts in the People of God.” This grace proper to the sacrament of Matrimony is intended to perfect the couple’s love and to strengthen their indissoluble unity. By this grace they “help one another to attain holiness in their married life and in welcoming and educating their children.” 

I think it's pretty clear that the first purpose is "to perfect the couple's love and to strengthen their indissoluble unity", though I can see some ambiguity in the way it is phrased, can lead one to believe they are equal.  That is why I prefer to use the older, simpler Catechism.  Doctrine never changes.

Edited November 20, 2019 by JHFamily

[ToJesusMyHeart]

My vocation is to be consecrated, but I reject my vocation because I want marriage and children. I chose to reject it and I chose to marry instead. Now I am doing what I can to achieve my dream of motherhood. That's all I care to say on the matter. 

[Lilllabettt]

2 minutes ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

My vocation is to be consecrated, but I reject my vocation because I want marriage and children. I chose to reject it and I chose to marry instead. Now I am doing what I can to achieve my dream of motherhood. That's all I care to say on the matter. 

Yikes.... 

Well, according to your own words, you, like everyone, have a natural vocation to marriage as well. So you chose between good vocations, both of which, according to your words, you have. Wasn't that the point of the homily you posted - we are all called to marriage naturally and all invited to the practice of the evangelical counsels as well? ((Although can one really say for certain they have a vocation to consecration, if it is never confirmed by the Church? ))

I hope your dream comes true. God has a way of separating us from attachments, one way or another, however. So my humble suggestion, meant in kindness, is that you do your best to cultivate a kind of holy indifference where God's gifts, including children, are concerned. 

[Sponsa-Christi]

22 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

I hope your dream comes true. God has a way of separating us from attachments, one way or another, however. So my humble suggestion, meant in kindness, is that you do your best to cultivate a kind of holy indifference where God's gifts, including children, are concerned. 

I also wish the OP every happiness in her marriage, and God willing she will be blessed with children.

But oh my gosh, yes, God sure is good at purifying from attachments! And this can really hurt at times. The only real "cure" for this pain is to work on becoming more attached to God and less attached to other things. (Not that I'm very good at this myself!)

It reminds me a bit of that old joke: "What's the best way to make God laugh? Tell him your plans." 

[Kateri89]

2 hours ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

My vocation is to be consecrated, but I reject my vocation because I want marriage and children. I chose to reject it and I chose to marry instead. Now I am doing what I can to achieve my dream of motherhood. That's all I care to say on the matter. 

I feel badly that the thread turned out this way.  Your original post was simply a happy announcement and after a lengthy thread and debate, you’re defending yourself.  I hope all the commenters responded with good intentions but it’s a real downer to be so excited about being a newlywed and then find yourself on the defensive end of the ensuing discussion.

 

To everyone:

I’m all for discussions about Church teachings, but I don’t think that the OP invited this debate with her initial post.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Kateri89

[Lilllabettt]

11 minutes ago, Kateri89 said:

I feel badly that the thread turned out this way.  Your original post was simply a happy announcement and after a lengthy thread and debate, you’re defending yourself.  I hope all the commenters responded with good intentions but it’s a real downer to be so excited about being a newlywed and then find yourself on the defensive end of the ensuing discussion.

 

To everyone:

I’m all for discussions about Church teachings, but I don’t think that the OP invited this debate with her initial post.

Well, it doesn't have to be a downer.  And, it's not really a debate. Although we're not supposed to spotlight marriage, period,  I do think this thread is exactly the type of discussion VS is supposed to engender ... my initial question was about her discernment process (which is what we're about, right).  Anyway, I'm glad it went down the path it did, because the information shared is crucial to her flourishing in her vocation. Or really anyone who is reading and weighing marriage vs. religious life. 

And I do hope to see wedding pics as I love weddings... although it's much harder to post images now in the phorum....

Edited November 21, 2019 by Lilllabettt

[Peace]

5 hours ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

My vocation is to be consecrated, but I reject my vocation because I want marriage and children. I chose to reject it and I chose to marry instead. Now I am doing what I can to achieve my dream of motherhood. That's all I care to say on the matter. 

Yeah I think I got what you were saying in your posts.

At least here in the US our vocations (or our lives more generally) are often presented as something that is "discerned" rather than something that is our own free choice. It is as though God has each person's life fully planned out down to the last detail, and it is merely our job to "discern" the exact plan that God has for us. It is a bit like the trophy wife that was presented to Prince Akeem in coming to America. He asks her what she likes, and she has no other response but "I like what you like."

But I don't know if that is right. I don't think God desires that kind of relationship with man. I think he enjoys letting us decide good things for ourselves, just as we would enjoy seeing our children exercise their freedom in a good way.

I have not seen anything in any authoritative Catholic document that actually suggests the "discern" way of looking at it, but if anyone has a document that teaches or discusses that, I would be interested in having a look.

Of course, it is a good thing to discern God's will for our lives and to follow it. I think the error may be the assumption that God has the details of our "ideal" life planned out, even to the level of simply choosing a vocation. It could just as easily be the case that God's will is for you and I to make our own choice among options that are each good. And that is what you did.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Peace

[Peace]

I did some research. This is the best thing I found in support of the "discernment" view:

http://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici.html

To Discover and Live One's Vocation and Mission

58. The fundamental objective of the formation of the lay faithful is an ever-clearer discovery of one's vocation and the ever-greater willingness to live it so as to fulfil one's mission.

God calls me and sends me forth as a labourer in his vineyard. He calls me and sends me forth to work for the coming of his Kingdom in history. This personal vocation and mission defines the dignity and the responsibility of each member of the lay faithful and makes up the focal point of the whole work of formation, whose purpose is the joyous and grateful recognition of this dignity and the faithful and generous living-out of this responsibility.

In fact, from eternity God has thought of us and has loved us as unique individuals. Every one of us he called by name, as the Good Shepherd "calls his sheep by name" (Jn 10:3). However, only in the unfolding of the history of our lives and its events is the eternal plan of God revealed to each of us. Therefore, it is a gradual process; in a certain sense, one that happens day by day.

To be able to discover the actual will of the Lord in our lives always involves the following: a receptive listening to the Word of God and the Church, fervent and constant prayer, recourse to a wise and loving spiritual guide, and a faithful discernment of the gifts and talents given by God, as well as the diverse social and historic situations in which one lives.

Therefore, in the life of each member of the lay faithful there are particularly significant and decisive moments for discerning God's call and embracing the mission entrusted by Him. Among these are the periods of adolescence and young adulthood. No one must forget that the Lord, as the master of the labourers in the vineyard, calls at every hour of life so as to make his holy will more precisely and explicitly known. Therefore, the fundamental and continuous attitude of the disciple should be one of vigilance and a conscious attentiveness to the voice of God.

It is not a question of simply knowing what God wants from each of us in the various situations of life. The individual must do what God wants, as we are reminded in the words that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, addressed to the servants at Cana: "Do whatever he tells you" (Jn 2:5). However, to act in fidelity to God's will requires a capability for acting and the developing of that capability. We can rest assured that this is possible through the free and responsible collaboration of each of us with the grace of the Lord which is never lacking. Saint Leo the Great says: "The one who confers the dignity will give the strength!"[210].

This, then, is the marvelous yet demanding task awaiting all the lay faithful and all Christians at every moment: to grow always in the knowledge of the richness of Baptism and faith as well as to live it more fully. In referring to birth and growth as two stages in the Christian life the apostle Peter makes the following exhortation: "Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation" (1 Pt 2:2).

[Lilllabettt]

3 hours ago, Peace said:

 

But I don't know if that is right. I don't think God desires that kind of relationship with man. I think he enjoys letting us decide good things for ourselves, just as we would enjoy seeing our children exercise their freedom in a good way.

I have not seen anything in any authoritative Catholic document that actually suggests the "discern" way of looking at it, but if anyone has a document that teaches or discusses that, I would be interested in having a look.

Of course, it is a good thing to discern God's will for our lives and to follow it. I think the error may be the assumption that God has the details of our "ideal" life planned out, even to the level of simply choosing a vocation. It could just as easily be the case that God's will is for you and I to make our own choice among options that are each good. And that is what you did.

Basically, there are 2 main schools of thought where vocation is concerned.

The thomistic view popular in the Dominican order, is that there is 1 universal call to holiness and we get to choose how we respond to the call. Almost everyone is capable of living religious life, and since it's the safest and superior path, we should just use will power to choose it and then persevere. Of course we can also go with marriage if we want. God is fine with that, but we're making it hard on ourselves. 

Then there's the Ignatian view. You know how St Ignatius luvvvvs discernment. His has the idea that God has a plan for our life in terms of how He would like us to spend it - a stare of life that will be the safer more efficacious way of becoming holy for us personally.  See the difference?

For st Thomas, religious life is the most efficacious way period. For st Ignatius, marriage might be the better way for YOU even if consecrated life is objectively superior. For st Ignatius you can't just will your way to living religious life, you have to be called, given a specific grace to live that vocation. For St Thomas, everyone has the grace needed to be a religious, given at baptism in the universal call to holiness. It's just about applying yourself.

Both views are accepted as legitimate approaches although in modern times st Ignatius is way more popular.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Lilllabettt

[CatherineM]

I’m pretty sure priests still marry people over the age of 50, so being able to have kids isn’t a prerequisite for marriage. Being able to engage in the conjugal act is. Of course my canon law courses were a few years ago now. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

For st Ignatius you can't just will your way to living religious life, you have to be called, given a specific grace to live that vocation.

 

[Peace]

19 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

For st Ignatius you can't just will your way to living religious life, you have to be called, given a specific grace to live that vocation.

I need a special grace to put up with ya'll women nowadays. I'm just saying.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

i am very much siding with saint thomas on the discussion of vocation. 

everyone has a vocation to religious life, it is the superior path, we would do best to choose it. but if you want to reject it and choose to marry, that is an acceptable alternative. which is what i have chosen. 

Young folks will have to choose a state of life, but it’s not very helpful to think in terms of “vocations.” Because, everyone, the good news is: You each have an invitation to marriage—’cause, yeah, your nature is called to it. And the other good news is: You each have a vocation to religious life—you heard the invitation in the Gospel this morning.

Therefore, go ahead and feel free to choose a state of life, any one, in peace, without anxiety. Both marriage, and holy Christian celibacy lead to heaven. And don’t worry about messing up and choosing wrong, because the merciful Lord can make either one work for your salvation.

Is one better than the other? Sure. And maybe that’ll influence your choice. But don’t stress over it. In the body, the heart is a nobler organ than the liver, fine, but the body kind of needs both to not die.

So, if you can, and you want to, dude, just ask that nice Catholic girl to marry you. It’s a good thing to do. Or if you can, and you want to, just apply to enter the monastery. You don’t need any special excuse or fireworks, because it’s a good thing to do. So, you see, a lot of folks can freely choose a state of life, without worrying about “vocations.”

[Lilllabettt]

6 hours ago, ToJesusMyHeart said:

i am very much siding with saint thomas on the discussion of vocation. 

everyone has a vocation to religious life, it is the superior path, we would do best to choose it. but if you want to reject it and choose to marry, that is an acceptable alternative. which is what i have chosen. 

Young folks will have to choose a state of life, but it’s not very helpful to think in terms of “vocations.” Because, everyone, the good news is: You each have an invitation to marriage—’cause, yeah, your nature is called to it. And the other good news is: You each have a vocation to religious life—you heard the invitation in the Gospel this morning.

Therefore, go ahead and feel free to choose a state of life, any one, in peace, without anxiety. Both marriage, and holy Christian celibacy lead to heaven. And don’t worry about messing up and choosing wrong, because the merciful Lord can make either one work for your salvation.

Is one better than the other? Sure. And maybe that’ll influence your choice. But don’t stress over it. In the body, the heart is a nobler organ than the liver, fine, but the body kind of needs both to not die.

So, if you can, and you want to, dude, just ask that nice Catholic girl to marry you. It’s a good thing to do. Or if you can, and you want to, just apply to enter the monastery. You don’t need any special excuse or fireworks, because it’s a good thing to do. So, you see, a lot of folks can freely choose a state of life, without worrying about “vocations.”

It's refreshing to see someone take St Thomas' side. But. I think the main issue with the perspective you gave is it seems to prioritize being a mom over being a wife. When, in fact, the reverse is probably true. In fact being a good mom might mean prioritizing being a wife over being a mom. I'm thinking out loud here.

and ... when you said people who know they can't have kids shouldn't marry. Yiiiiiiiiiikes... 

But that makes sense that you'd think that, because you were missing a piece about the Catholic understanding of marriage.  

Anyway. Since this is open mic now ... how about some wedding pics.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

update! i'm pregnant! 4 weeks today! pray for a healthy pregnancy!