Fr. James Martin On Same Sex Sexual Behavior And Slavery In The Bible

[Guest]

3 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

What if though the biblical understanding of servanthood and it's tolerance of it is not the same as your understanding of slavery? 

I don't buy it. The Bible continually used the word slave. It referred to people as slaves and property. Gave approval in some situations of owning them for life. Other situations gave approval to letting the father go and allowing the mother and children to be owned. It gave approval of striking and beating slaves in certain cases. Gave instructions supposedly from God to a people that wasn't or had been practicing slavery to go ahead and start practicing it. Gave parables supposedly from Jesus telling stories comparing slaves to being beaten with no moral problem of it.

I don't think it was some form of innocent servanthood. I don't believe it's okay to own people for life in some cases and be able to strike them ect. I won't allow it to ruin my faith. I'm on my way to Confession now. I'm thankful for a Church that helps to interpret scripture and has had leadership that has spoken out against slavery and admits there is difficult passages in the Bible that can be challenging to a person's faith and trust in the Bible.

[Peace]

58 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't buy it. The Bible continually used the word slave. It referred to people as slaves and property. Gave approval in some situations of owning them for life. Other situations gave approval to letting the father go and allowing the mother and children to be owned. It gave approval of striking and beating slaves in certain cases. Gave instructions supposedly from God to a people that wasn't or had been practicing slavery to go ahead and start practicing it. Gave parables supposedly from Jesus telling stories comparing slaves to being beaten with no moral problem of it.

I don't think it was some form of innocent servanthood. I don't believe it's okay to own people for life in some cases and be able to strike them ect. I won't allow it to ruin my faith. I'm on my way to Confession now. I'm thankful for a Church that helps to interpret scripture and has had leadership that has spoken out against slavery and admits there is difficult passages in the Bible that can be challenging to a person's faith and trust in the Bible.

I used to think that people who brought up the differences between the types of "slavery" were just trying to rationalize evil, but after looking at the issue without jumping to a conclusion one way or the other, I think that some of the distinctions are valid.

What the Bible approves is not what you saw in the trans-atlantic slave trade. Many people who attack the Bible on ground that it condones slavery try to make it seem like the Bible approves that, but I don't think that is true.

Whether or not what the Bible condoned is moral is valid to debate, but its not the debate that most people actually want to have. They want to portray the Bible as condoning something that it did not, because the latter is much worse and it is much easier to play the "guilt by association" game that way. . .

[fides' Jack]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:37 AM, Josh said:

It's a good question. He probably shouldn't be asking it publicily and vaguely since he's a priest with a large following. But in the real world it's a 100% legit question. One that I have wondered myself. And I personally think homosexual acts are a sin. Although as I've said in previous post's recently I'm no longer homophobic. And ridding myself of the hate that was once there I will admit I've become more confused on the topic. I still accept the Catholic teaching on it. But I get how when real questions are asked in the real world it becomes a complex question that isn't blatantly obvious. Especially when the Bible read Sola Scripturally got the the topic on slavery wrong. That's a major topic to be wrong on when the Bible is claimed to be what it is. And because it was wrong a lot of people were gravely harmed and mistreated as a result.

Even read "Sola Scriturally", the Bible does not condone slavery.  You posted the evidence yourself in a previous post.  There's a difference between the slavery that was happening largely in the South in this country's past and indentured servitude (which I don't think the Church has condemned to this day - though I could be wrong).

 

Woops - did not see that Peace already answered this.

Edited October 28, 2019 by fides' Jack

[Guest]

7 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

(which I don't think the Church has condemned to this day - though I could be wrong).

I don't need a Church or anyone else to confirm to me owning people for life and being able to physically strike them is wrong. I need the Church for a lot of things but this is not one of them.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Guest

[fides' Jack]

On 10/28/2019 at 4:40 PM, Josh said:

I don't need a Church or anyone else to confirm to me owning people for life and being able to physically strike them is wrong. I need the Church for a lot of things but this is not one of them.

All our understanding of morality ultimately comes through the Church.  You may not realize this, but you wouldn't even have the understanding you do now without the Church.  Without the Church, slavery might still be a thing today.

I, on the other hand, need the Church for everything.  There isn't a single iota of knowledge or morality or good whatsoever that I don't owe to the Church.  I am completely incapable of doing, thinking, or even understanding anything good without Her. 

[Peace]

8 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

All our understanding of morality ultimately comes through the Church.  You may not realize this, but you wouldn't even have the understanding you do now without the Church.  Without the Church, slavery might still be a thing today.

I, on the other hand, need the Church for everything.  There isn't a single iota of knowledge or morality or good whatsoever that I don't owe to the Church.  I am completely incapable of doing, thinking, or even understanding anything good without Her. 

In what sense do you mean that exactly? It is not like people did not know that things like murder and rape were wrong before the founding of the Church.

What you wrote sounds almost Calvinist. It sounds like their doctrine of "total depravity" which the Church rejects.

[Lilllabettt]

10 hours ago, Peace said:

In what sense do you mean that exactly? It is not like people did not know that things like murder and rape were wrong before the founding of the Church.

What you wrote sounds almost Calvinist. It sounds like their doctrine of "total depravity" which the Church rejects.

Yeah... sounds squishy. Some morality is written on the human heart. I believe it's called the natural law.

[Anomaly]

23 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

All our understanding of morality ultimately comes through the Church.  You may not realize this, but you wouldn't even have the understanding you do now without the Church.  Without the Church, slavery might still be a thing today.

I, on the other hand, need the Church for everything.  There isn't a single iota of knowledge or morality or good whatsoever that I don't owe to the Church.  I am completely incapable of doing, thinking, or even understanding anything good without Her. 

Sorry, but the Church would disagree with you on this point.  Read the Catechism, Article 2, The Moral Law, 1950 through 1960.  

Basic Morality is known through reason and logic.  The Church lays claim to bring a fullness of moral knowledge, such as what ultimate harm is inflicted by slavery, same sex marriage, abortion, etc.   Cultural relativism might obscure understanding the ultimate harm of certain actions, such as slavery, “if they’re treated right”, or SAme Sex Marriage “ if two people are consenting and happy”.  

[Guest]

Good article by Don Johnson.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/slavery-homosexuality-and-sola-scriptura

[Count Claydus]

On 10/24/2019 at 11:38 PM, Josh said:

Leviticus 25:44-46 

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

 

Exodus 21:4

If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

 

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.If however he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

 

Exodus 21:26-27 If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

 

1 Timothy 6:1-2 All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.

 

Luke 12:47 

The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

 

 

There is just servitude: Prisoners of war, criminals, indentured servants, and children sold by their parents, who when mature would be free. 

 

Then there is unjust survitude: kidnapped people, those unjustly taken from their home without committing a serious crime.  

[Peace]

1 hour ago, Count Claydus said:

 and children sold by their parents, who when mature would be free.

You were doing OK until this buddy.

[Guest]

Posted by a black friend on Facebook today. 

 

1 Peter 2:18-25

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Guest

[Lilllabettt]

28 minutes ago, Josh said:

Posted by a black friend on Facebook today. 

 

1 Peter 2:18-25

Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 

So now do the master. The master is required to treat his slave like Christ. Christ said "you are no longer slaves you are my friends". He freed them.

There is a very similar passage about women obeying their husbands. 

P.s. the oldest translations have this addressed to "servants," not slaves.  

It's true that Christianity is very kill them with kindness, turn the other cheek, and that bad interpretations of that tendency have been used to justify staying in abusive relationships.  

 

[fides' Jack]

On 11/7/2019 at 8:10 PM, Peace said:

In what sense do you mean that exactly? It is not like people did not know that things like murder and rape were wrong before the founding of the Church.

What you wrote sounds almost Calvinist. It sounds like their doctrine of "total depravity" which the Church rejects.

 

On 11/8/2019 at 6:49 AM, Lilllabettt said:

Yeah... sounds squishy. Some morality is written on the human heart. I believe it's called the natural law.

 

On 11/8/2019 at 11:35 AM, Anomaly said:

Sorry, but the Church would disagree with you on this point.  Read the Catechism, Article 2, The Moral Law, 1950 through 1960.  

Basic Morality is known through reason and logic.  The Church lays claim to bring a fullness of moral knowledge, such as what ultimate harm is inflicted by slavery, same sex marriage, abortion, etc.   Cultural relativism might obscure understanding the ultimate harm of certain actions, such as slavery, “if they’re treated right”, or SAme Sex Marriage “ if two people are consenting and happy”.  

I think you all misunderstood what I'm saying.  Peace was right to ask the question.

What I meant was simply that without the grace of God, we can't know anything about morality.  Even the natural law, written "on our hearts", is written by the grace of God.  All grace comes from God, and through the Catholic Church. 

In short, everything good has its source in God.  We can't think or do anything good without receiving that grace from Him (and choosing to accept that grace), which we receive through the Catholic Church.  This is Augustinian theology, as I understand it.

This is not the same as the error of total depravity, which lends to the belief that there is no free will, because we aren't even free to choose whether or not to allow that goodness of God to come through us (i.e. we don't have the ability to choose the good that comes from God).