Pope Francis

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Edited October 29, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Peace said:

I would like more information before passing judgment on them.

If I go to a museum and burn an incense stick before a Jupiter statute it would not be idolatry my friend. I do not believe that the statute is a god, nor does it represent any god for me. It is a statute of a mythical figure who I know does not exist. Nor is burning an incense stick something that I do as an act of worship. I might get kicked out of the museum but that is neither here nor there.

Now if I think the Jupiter statute is a god or represents some god and burn an incense stick before the statute as a form of worshiping this god, that would be idolatry.

Similarly, if a person kneels as a form of worship, and believes that Mary is a god or that a statute of Mary represents the god Mary, and then kneels before this statute to worship Mary, that would also be idolatry. This is exactly what many Protestants "see with their own eyes" but of course we do not commit idolatry because of our intention and because of "what is in our heart". So yes, those things do matter, even if you make light of them

That is fine with me, but again I think it can be very similar to what Protestants do. They see us kneel before a statute of Mary, they read many of our prayers that are extremely respectful of Mary and accuse of idolatry. They cannot deny what their eyes see, even though what their eyes see is wrong.

 
Well said and thank you, Peace. Thank God that He alone can judge us and not our fellow man.  There is a saying "Do not judge, you do not know what storms I have asked a person to pass through". It's not in Scripture, but still a logical type of thought to flow on from the following:

3 hours ago, Josh said:

 

 Must confess, Josh, that I am not sure whether you are agreeing with the above quotes, or challenging something said elsewhere and my problem as I have not been following this thread.   But I really did like the main point of the quotes above and so gave you a "Like".  Of course, too, I am a long term fan of Pope Francis  I said with his election that if he put his foot down, it would go right through the floorboards. In other words, I think he can be VERY assertive and a figure of commanding authority if he must and needs be.

I think a lot of it with the Papacy as with the President of the USA and our own Prime Minister.  Once they are actually in the role, they are dependant on advisors etc. around them and a totally different experience to before they assumed the authority they now might have.

Edited October 29, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

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[KnightofChrist]

Ritual bowl for demonic Pachamama placed on St. Peter’s altar at closing Mass of #AmazonSynod

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Robert Moynihan is a long-time vaticanista.  In his latest “Letter #59, 2019: In plain sight“, he looks into the pagan element worked into the closing Mass of the Amazon Synod (“walking together”).  We had speculated about whether or not the wooden demon idols of Pachamama, a demon goddess to whom human sacrifice was offered, a kind of “mother earth” embodiment, but clearly demonic, would be involved at the closing Mass of the “walking together”.   Nope. No demon statuette.

That doesn’t mean that Pachamama, the demon pagans worshipped with human sacrifice, wasn’t being openly honored during the Mass, and even put on altar of St. Peter’s, above the bones of the Apostle!

Moynihan at great length establishes with reference to video of the closing Mass the bringing forward at the offertory a bowl with a plant that that Francis instructed Msgr. Guido (that poor man) Marini to put on the altar.  Of course gifts at the offertory are NOT to be placed on the altar, much less trash like this.

What was put on the altar?

A bowl of dirt with various plants, one with red flowers.

Those are ugly plants.  Since they are not beautiful, they must have some other meaning or purpose.

Skipping to the point… Moynighan posted:

Then, after further searching, I learned that a bowl of soil with plants in it is often connected with ceremonial rituals involving Pachamana.

There is one among many websites that describes the ritual (link):

“If it is difficult for you to move to a natural space to offer to Mother Earth, do not worry, you can perform your own ritual at home:

“- Use a bottle or flower pot full of dirt, there you proceed to make a hole, it is recommended to do it with your hands to connect with the energy of the ritual.  [This goes back to what happened in the Vatican Gardens… the pagan, demonic ceremony.]

“- A kind of well is made, and food and drinks are poured for the enjoyment of the Pachamama.

“- The food option is extensive, one can place anything from fruits to Creole foods and seeds. In the case of drinks, chicha, natural juices, honey, wine, even coca leaves are suggested.

“- Then we proceed to cover it with dirt and flowers.

“Every year more people join in and they learn to leave our daily work and reflect and realize who we are, where we are and have this gesture of recognition and thanks to Mother Earth, which we say is humanity, the earth, the air, the animals, the water, the fire, which is everything that makes our life.”

Also: “You should never miss something red, it is the favorite color of the Pacha!  [Red flower.]

So it seemed that the bowl of flowers presented at the offertory of the final Synod Mass, and then placed on the altar during the consecration, may have been connected with a ritual of veneration, and thanks, to Mother Earth, known as Pachamana…

So the images were not in the basilica, but perhaps an offering to Pachamana, in a bowl, was…

Ann Barnhardt has the goods on this black bowl.  HERE  She has several posts.  In summary….

These black bowls, the same as the one with the red flower on the altar of St. Peter’s, were all over the place in the Synod Hall.

They were all over the church Santa Maria in Traspontina, where all the evil displays and presence of this demonic shaman and women religious were found all day.

The black bowl was in the pagan Vatican garden ceremony in honor of Pachamama:

Look on the left.

A closeup shows there is a symbol on the bottom of the upturned bowl.  Ann may have found a version of that symbol, which is, surprise, for Pachamama.

Detail… rotated.

With a red flower in honor of the demon goddess on the altar at St. Peter’s at the direction of Francis.

So, an obvious of statue wasn’t placed on or near the altar of St. Peter’s Basilica, but this instrument with the demonic symbol was placed on the mensa of the altar of Sacrifice directly over the bones of Peter himself.

The implications of this are, frankly, horrifying to contemplate.

 

Please share!

Source: https://wdtprs.com/2019/10/ritual-bowl-for-demonic-pachamama-placed-on-st-peters-altar-at-closing-mass-of-amazonsynod/

[Guest]

[Seven77]

On 10/29/2019 at 1:43 AM, Peace said:

I would like more information before passing judgment on them.

If I go to a museum and burn an incense stick before a Jupiter statute it would not be idolatry my friend. I do not believe that the statute is a god, nor does it represent any god for me. It is a statute of a mythical figure who I know does not exist. Nor is burning an incense stick something that I do as an act of worship. I might get kicked out of the museum but that is neither here nor there.

Now if I think the Jupiter statute is a god or represents some god and burn an incense stick before the statute as a form of worshiping this god, that would be idolatry.

Similarly, if a person kneels as a form of worship, and believes that Mary is a god or that a statute of Mary represents the god Mary, and then kneels before this statute to worship Mary, that would also be idolatry. This is exactly what many Protestants "see with their own eyes" but of course we do not commit idolatry because of our intention and because of "what is in our heart". So yes, those things do matter, even if you make light of them

That is fine with me, but again I think it can be very similar to what Protestants do. They see us kneel before a statute of Mary, they read many of our prayers that are extremely respectful of Mary and accuse of idolatry. They cannot deny what their eyes see, even though what their eyes see is wrong.

 I know you meant  it hypothetically, but why on earth would you burn incense before a statue of Jupiter, in the museum?  The only wayI could possibly envision it is if said statue was literally stinking up the place and you were a security guard on night duty. Otherwise, it would cause scandal to someone who might see you do it (think St. Paul's words in first Corinthians, on abstaining from meat offered to pagan "gods," which do not exist

Furthermore, think of it in this way: St. Thomas Moore refused to acknowledge King Henry VIII's unlawful marriage to Anne Boleyn and his declaration of being the head of the Church of England--- even after his daughter suggested that he could  sign off on it while upholding the truth in his heart. The same kind of thinning g was suggested to the old man in first Maccabees. You can't do it. Just can't. Even if you burn incense before statue of Jupiter while holding that you really don't believe  that Jupiter even exists.  I don't know of any situation hypothetical or real other than the one I gave

And can i just say how horrible looking the pacha mama are? i mean for real, they are so crude and because of their detail   are very unworthy of being associated with anything Christian let alone the Most Holy and Blessed Virgin Mary.  moreover, such depictions are known to be associated with paganism by their very name in that culture. what a confusion the whole thing must be to some of them, them, especially the neophytes. what a scandal.

yes things can be appropriated a&nd baptized, but not everything. especially  things that are already associated with something else, for example, it's like taking a known depiction of a Hindu god and saying that we now claim the  stature to be Christ.

 Worse still, if the statue is some kind of concept of fertility or life… Why on earth did certain bishops fall prostrate before it? Yikes.  I have never seen anyone down on the face before a statue of Our Lady or any Saint let alone a statue of a concept or idea. Prostration is a gesture of  the worshipOf adoration, no way around it.

the only thing we can do is pray, prayer is everything .  All you holy men and women of God, Saints, pray for us!

Edited November 1, 2019 by Seven77

[Guest]

https://www.dosmanosperu.com/blog/celebrating-pachamama-in-peruvian-andes/

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catholicism-confronts-new-age-syncretism-11322

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

the only thing we can do is pray, prayer is everything .  All you holy men and women of God, Saints, pray for us!

Veni Sancte Spiritus Veni...........Amen

[Guest]

 

 

[Peace]

19 hours ago, Seven77 said:

 I know you meant  it hypothetically, but why on earth would you burn incense before a statue of Jupiter, in the museum?  The only wayI could possibly envision it is if said statue was literally stinking up the place and you were a security guard on night duty. Otherwise, it would cause scandal to someone who might see you do it (think St. Paul's words in first Corinthians, on abstaining from meat offered to pagan "gods," which do not exist

It might do it just to annoy my good friend @KnightofChrist.

Or perhaps I might do it for aesthetic reasons. I will title my new photograph "Incense in Front of Large Jupiter Statute." It is a lovely image isn't it? I'll be as famous as Ansel Adams.

Now, doing so may very well be scandal but the discussion was actually whether or not it would be idolatry. The point I was trying to make was that both external action and interior disposition are important in determining whether idolatry has occurred. That was all.

19 hours ago, Seven77 said:

And can i just say how horrible looking the pacha mama are? i mean for real, they are so crude and because of their detail   are very unworthy of being associated with anything Christian let alone the Most Holy and Blessed Virgin Mary.  

I dunno about all that. At least the statutes I saw were of a pregnant brown woman. I didn't find them to be crude looking and I do not think the people in that region would share in your opinion either.

Lets say that hypothetically similar looking statutes (without any possible idol associations, to separate that element out for the moment) were used in association with St. Mary by people in the Amazon region. I will be perfectly wiling to remove those statutes if you and @KnightofChrist agree to remove the thousands of images of a snow white European looking Mary that can be found across Catholic Churches in the USA. I do not like the snow white Mary and blue eyed Jesus since we know that neither is representative of reality. Deal? Let's just remove all of those statutes simply because of my own personal preferences concerning what is appropriate.

19 hours ago, Seven77 said:

moreover, such depictions are known to be associated with paganism by their very name in that culture. what a confusion the whole thing must be to some of them, them, especially the neophytes. what a scandal.

Yes, from limited information it appears that some type ocorrection/instruction needs to take place. But I don't know what happened and what the complete situation is. I only have tidbits of real information here and there along with numerous rantings and speculations of various Trad websites. As I wrote before, I would want more information concerning what actually happened before passing judgment on it.

We have demon worship conspiracy theories being generated because of a plant.

19 hours ago, Seven77 said:

yes things can be appropriated a&nd baptized, but not everything. especially  things that are already associated with something else, for example, it's like taking a known depiction of a Hindu god and saying that we now claim the  stature to be Christ.

Well I generally agree that it would not be prudent to do that, if that is what happened here (although there is some evidence to suggest that this type of thing happened with the Christmas Holiday).

19 hours ago, Seven77 said:

 Worse still, if the statue is some kind of concept of fertility or life… Why on earth did certain bishops fall prostrate before it? Yikes.  I have never seen anyone down on the face before a statue of Our Lady or any Saint let alone a statue of a concept or idea. Prostration is a gesture of  the worshipOf adoration, no way around it.

Find the people in the photo and ask them what happened. Or send a new Dubia to the Pope? How about we demand that these bishops be excommunicated?

I don't know what happened but as I wrote before you can go all over the internet and find Protestants who take pictures of Catholics kneeling and praying before statutes, crucifixes, etc. and accuse us of idolatry. Without more information I am not willing to sit here and insinuate the same against fellow Catholics, let alone clergy.

But if that floats your boat go for it.

19 hours ago, Seven77 said:

the only thing we can do is pray, prayer is everything .  All you holy men and women of God, Saints, pray for us!

Well it is not the only thing we can do, but probably the best.

[KnightofChrist]

@Peace

When Catholics kneel before statues of Saints, or Mary it is veneration of the Saint or Mary. While not adoration, which alone belongs to God, it is a form of worship. So perhaps the demon wasn't receiving adoration but worship of a lesser type? Or perhaps just a play game of old demonic rituals with no real of the heart meaning? That there is great confusion on the topic is evidence of failure by Pope Francis.

I have a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and a Infant Child of Prague. One of the best things about Catholicism is that you can find devotion of Our Lady of just about any race. 

[KnightofChrist]

Vatican press office made clear the idol is not Mary. 

[GraceUk]

I can't see Pope Francis has done anything wrong from what little news we get about him in the UK. John Paul he isn't. But he seems to be doing an OK job.

[Peace]

4 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

@Peace

When Catholics kneel before statues of Saints, or Mary it is veneration of the Saint or Mary. While not adoration, which alone belongs to God, it is a form of worship. So perhaps the demon wasn't receiving adoration but worship of a lesser type? Or perhaps just a play game of old demonic rituals with no real of the heart meaning?

I don't think it has been established that the specific statutes that were present in the church were demons or idols. I don't see why folks are so quick to attribute such a thing to other Catholics, but if that is actually what happened I will call for their correction like everyone else.

Quote

That there is great confusion on the topic is evidence of failure by Pope Francis.

Is this what all of this is really about? Are people quick to jump on anything that can be used to attack Pope Francis and call him a failure, because they feel that he is against their particular agenda for the Church?

I dunno. But when I see folks jumping to form secret demon worship conspiracies because a plant was place on an altar, it starts to seem a bit ridiculous to me. If it is anything other than the "Red and the Black" TLM it seems that some folks are gonna find something to complain about. I am not saying this is right but from my perspective it does kind of seem this way. Sure this Pope is not perfect. I think he is sloppy with his words and communication at times and that can be improved. But really, are we now insinuating that the Pope is encouraging demon worship at Mass? I can't go there. At least not without more information than what I have.

Quote

I have a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and a Infant Child of Prague. One of the best things about Catholicism is that you can find devotion of Our Lady of just about any race. 

I guess this is true but it is pretty darn difficult to find good African Catholic statutes of any kind, at least in the USA. I have looked for them and they are pretty difficult to find. Personally as a black Catholic I feel that the kind of European cultural lens through which Catholicism in the US is filtered might hinder our faith from being spread to certain groups (like blacks) who don't relate as well to that cultural background. What many Catholics like to refer to as a "reverent Mass" will simply be perceived by many blacks as ritual devoid of real fire or passion for expressing love of God. This is just my speculation, but within this whole Amazon fiasco I do feel a little bit like certain folks are trying to impose their own cultural norms on others.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Peace

[Guest]

[KnightofChrist]

45 minutes ago, Peace said:

I don't think it has been established that the specific statutes that were present in the church were demons or idols. I don't see why folks are so quick to attribute such a thing to other Catholics, but if that is actually what happened I will call for their correction like everyone else.

No one has been quick to attribute idol worship to fellow Catholics. That is attributing such quickly without thought and solid evidence. 

This goes back to your position of not knowing being irrational. A detailed ritual ceremony recorded for eyes to see matching that of a pagan ceremony was held in the Vatican gardens. The pride of place of that ceremony were statues with the name of a false goddess. The Vatican stated the statues were not Mary and Pope Francis clearly stated were named Pachamama. The evidence greatly favors my position. I've not been quick to attitude the sin of idolarty to anyone involved. But the evidence makes clear that a false goddess was given some level of veneration. 

45 minutes ago, Peace said:

Is this what all of this is really about? Are people quick to jump on anything that can be used to attack Pope Francis and call him a failure, because they feel that he is against their particular agenda for the Church?

I dunno. But when I see folks jumping to form secret demon worship conspiracies because a plant was place on an altar, it starts to seem a bit ridiculous to me. If it is anything other than the "Red and the Black" TLM it seems that some folks are gonna find something to complain about. I am not saying this is right but from my perspective it does kind of seem this way. Sure this Pope is not perfect. I think he is sloppy with his words and communication at times and that can be improved. But really, are we now insinuating that the Pope is encouraging demon worship at Mass? I can't go there. At least not without more information than what I have.

I understand what you are saying here is that your difficultly in accepting the clear evidence is due to your preconceive prejudices against conservative or traditional Catholics. 

45 minutes ago, Peace said:

I guess this is true but it is pretty darn difficult to find good African Catholic statutes of any kind, at least in the USA. I have looked for them and they are pretty difficult to find. Personally as a black Catholic I feel that the kind of European cultural lens through which Catholicism in the US is filtered might hinder our faith from being spread to certain groups (like blacks) who don't relate as well to that cultural background. What many Catholics like to refer to as a "reverent Mass" will simply be perceived by many blacks as ritual devoid of real fire or passion for expressing love of God. This is just my speculation, but within this whole Amazon fiasco I do feel a little bit like certain folks are trying to impose their own cultural norms on others.

You can find statues of the black Madonna, ones that were originally made with dark skin, not just ones that turned dark in time. They are out there. 

As for the rest I think you take and make things too personal in most debates and discussions we've held. This time is no different. What statue of Mary I have has really nothing to do with what happened in the Vatican in these recent days. It would not matter to me if this same thing happened with a bunch of white folks bowing down low to Jupiter. My position would be the same. I'm not looking at the kinds of people but the actions of those persons. Unless we can trace our ancestry all the way to full blood Jewish progenitors, then we all have ancestry that worship pagan gods. That gives us no license to worship false gods or to participate in ceremonies were false gods appear to be worshipped.

7 minutes ago, Josh said:

St. Martin de Porres and others are being forgotten here or the article is focused on only the United States of America. Not America over all.