Church Teaching On Gay Marriage And Same Sex Disordered Passions

[Guest]

If you're Catholic (or not or were) how are you dealing with this issue? As in accepting the teaching? I used to be homophobic and was quick to embrace the teaching on the subject. Then I became non homophobic and still embraced the teaching. Now I'm very non homophobic and for the first time dealing with not being sure how I feel about it. I still would defend the teaching on the Church not allowing 2 same sex people to marry in the Church. But civil marriage through the state? I think I'm cool with it. Is that an improperly formed conscience? Am I sinning?

I also don't really know if I believe anymore that 2 gay people who love each other and are committed to each other will go to hell? I used to believe it 100%. But now? Not really. Also I just read a Catholic Answers article that compared the disordered nature of same sex attraction as to someone who likes to eat dirt. It wasn't meant as a slur (I don't think?) but was used to give an example of how someone may really feel like they want to eat dirt. But they shouldn't. In my homophobic days I would have no problem with the comparison. But now it sorta makes me wonder if I even want to be Catholic. At least for a brief moment. But then it just reminds me why I don't like Catholic Answers.

I'm a straight male. Never been attracted to the same sex. If I'm being completely honest I still find it kind of gross especially 2 males. But gross in a non hateful way. I'm just for the first time becoming sorta confused on what I believe on the issue. People used the Bible forever to justify slavery. Some Catholics still say slavery isn't inherently evil. I've read it by even clergy on the ewtn website citing various sources to support it. I think their wrong. So then I wonder well maybe the gay thing is similar to the slavery issue. But I then stop myself from going down that road of thought because it's a mind ****.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Guest

[Lilllabettt]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

If you're Catholic (or not or were) how are you dealing with this issue? As in accepting the teaching? I used to be homophobic and was quick to embrace the teaching on the subject. Then I became non homophobic and still embraced the teaching. Now I'm very non homophobic and for the first time dealing with not being sure how I feel about it. I still would defend the teaching on the Church not allowing 2 same sex people to marry in the Church. But civil marriage through the state? I think I'm cool with it. Is that an improperly formed conscience? Am I sinning?

I also don't really know if I believe anymore that 2 gay people who love each other and are committed to each other will go to hell? I used to believe it 100%. But now? Not really. Also I just read a Catholic Answers article that compared the disordered nature of same sex attraction as to someone who likes to eat dirt. It wasn't meant as a slur (I don't think?) but was used to give an example of how someone may really feel like they want to eat dirt. But they shouldn't. In my homophobic days I would have no problem with the comparison. But now it sorta makes me wonder if I even want to be Catholic. At least for a brief moment. But then it just reminds me why I don't like Catholic Answers.

I'm a straight male. Never been attracted to the same sex. If I'm being completely honest I still find it kind of gross especially 2 males. But gross in a non hateful way. I'm just for the first time becoming sorta confused on what I believe on the issue. People used the Bible forever to justify slavery. Some Catholics still say slavery isn't inherently evil. I've read it by even clergy on the ewtn website citing various sources to support it. I think their wrong. So then I wonder well maybe the gay thing is similar to the slavery issue. But I then stop myself from going down that road of thought because it's a mind ****.

Basically with the civil matter, the ship has sailed. As a matter of prudence, canceling the right to civil marriage which exists now is not a hill the Church asks us to die on.

As a matter of justice, we could ask ourselves why the government should be allowed to privilege married relationships over others. The original purpose of government involvement in marriage was to regulate who was engaging in sex and making babies. There is a compelling state interest in not having out of wedlock births or a population born from incest. This rationale doesn't apply to gay unions as they aren't reproductive.  And yet the government is privileging them, over non married relationships for some reason - maybe due to prejudice.  Which is an injustice.  

Anyway, that's a digression. Basically you're not required to favor cancelling gay marriage rights. It's a prudential matter at this point. 

Love is not a sin but extramarital sex is. Blessed John Henry Newman had an intense relationship with a man, another catholic priest, that he lived with, for decades. He called him the light of his earthly life. He asked to be buried with him, and they are indeed buried together. Theres no evidence that he ever violated celibacy. All evidence says he was an extremely holy man and also likely, had SSA.  Love between gay people can be pure - it's possible.  But extramarital sex, including gay sex, isn't an act of love, and that's where it gets twisted by people.  We are in an awkward time in the church where we need gay saints and need to platform faithful gay Catholics, to show gay people there is another way to exist as a gay person other than what the world is proposing. And yet the world we are trying to evangelize can interpret our efforts as a capitulation to their values.  Unlike a lot of people who favor more openness to gay people in the church, I think clarity on what the Gospel demands is 100% necessary for evangelization. That pov is rejected at the highest level, I realize.

I compare gay sex (and all illegitimate forms of sex) to junk food. Or, a somewhat more offensive comparison is the scene in Hunger Games, where the people at a fancy party gorge themselves on food and then swallow an emetic in order to vomit and make room for more. Eating for stimulation rather than nourishment.  Deriving pleasure while frustrating the purpose. Most people have had the experience of gorging on junk so it's less of an insult imo vs eating dirt. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

But extramarital sex, including gay sex, isn't an act of love, and that's where it gets twisted by people.

As a Catholic I agree with this. But it's a tough sell. Especially when it comes to two committed gay people who are "married". It is an act of love to them. As a Catholic I understand it's not considered an act of love because it's not open to life. But just being real I know that sex between two married people in love  is an expression of that love even when avoiding pregnancy. It's how we are created as sexual beings. And a majority of Catholics/Christians aren't open to life every single time they have sex with their spouse. Yet they would still consider it an act of love. And in non Catholic branches of Christianity sex not open to life every single time isn't a mortal sin that will send you to hell. Again I'm Catholic so I agree with your statement. But it has become tougher for me to accept.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Blessed John Henry Newman had an intense relationship with a man, another catholic priest, that he lived with, for decades. He called him the light of his earthly life. He asked to be buried with him, and they are indeed buried together. Theres no evidence that he ever violated celibacy. All evidence says he was an extremely holy man and also likely, had SSA. 

Not to get off topic but I find this tough to believe. I know nothing about him but knowing what I know about being in love and hormones I find it almost impossible you could be deeply in love with someone and live with them for decades and never fall. You might set out to do that in the beginning but at some point it would become to much. The temptation would be to great. That's probably where avoiding the near occasion of sin comes in. And I'm not judging him if he did fall. And I'm not saying he did. Like I said I don't know him. But for 90 percent of people hormones would take over. And that's just reality. You're deeply in love and living with the person. You might want to do what the Bible and the Church teaches. But yeah. Reality is reality.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Guest

[Lilllabettt]

42 minutes ago, Josh said:

As a Catholic I agree with this. But it's a tough sell. Especially when it comes to two committed gay people who are "married". It is an act of love to them. As a Catholic I understand it's not considered an act of love because it's not open to life. But just being real I know that sex between two married people in love  is an expression of that love even when avoiding pregnancy. It's how we are created as sexual beings. And a majority of Catholics/Christians aren't open to life every single time they have sex with their spouse. Yet they would still consider it an act of love. And in non Catholic branches of Christianity sex not open to life every single time isn't a mortal sin that will send you to hell. Again I'm Catholic so I agree with your statement. But it has become tougher for me to accept.

Well it's true it's an act of love for them. The reality is, if you don't understand that a sin is a mortal sin, it's not a mortal sin. Now we can be culpable for our ignorance.  And God knows exactly how much we really understand and how much we ought to have understood.  So it's not something to eff around with. But we don't know if people that do gay sex or contraceptive sex etc. are going to even get the lightest punishment.  Their lives will be darkened more than they could be, they are not living their best life. But their degree of responsibility is known only to heaven. Actually how God works is He makes all our failings work for good. Even our mortal sins are used by Him in the design of His glory and our salvation.

The churchs teaching on gay sex is the most difficult one for me to accept, more difficult than the eucharist. But, I am also utterly convinced of the cosmic gravity of sex in the universe and also that satan makes war with this method primarily. He hunts us via sex and God is trying to save us via sex, and I don't think Jesus would have agreed to die before giving us the proper teaching on this, it's that important.  

Regarding Cardinal Newman. It's ok to be skeptical if he never fell sexually. But the point is he triumphed in the end. He wasn't a martyr graced with momentary heroic sanctity, and that suggests he achieved an exalted degree of integration and purity that was stable in life. It's true about the near occassion of sin - but - not to scandalize you, but the temptation to physicality between members of the same sex is very common in contemplative religious life, even among people that are "straight". This is a phenomenon known to happen in prisons as well. And it's just- we have to be careful not to think that sin is inevitable.  God does give us sufficient grace to remain out of mortal sin, he will never withdraw that, ever. The question is our response. With the saints, the response to grace is perfected even in this life. 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Lilllabettt

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Well it's true it's an act of love for them. The reality is, if you don't understand that a sin is a mortal sin, it's not a mortal sin. Now we can be culpable for our ignorance.  And God knows exactly how much we really understand and how much we ought to have understood.  So it's not something to eff around with. But we don't know if people that do gay sex or contraceptive sex etc. are going to even get the lightest punishment.  Their lives will be darkened more than they could be, they are not living their best life. But their degree of responsibility is known only to heaven. Actually how God works is He makes all our failings work for good.

I like this perspective. And it make sense on my understanding of God and his judgment.

 

15 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Even our mortal sins are used by Him in the design of His glory and our salvation.

Can you explain this? I'm hoping you're not going to say it's because all of our mortal sins are shown to everyone at the second judgement and we all rejoice at God's mercy. I've read this and I'm not a fan of it. Not that it would make it untrue just because I'm not a fan. But it also doesn't make sense. Maybe you're talking about something different though? I read a few weeks ago from Pope Francis that are sins won't be shown to everyone. That God will forget them. I really like Pope Francis. If he could of just did better with the sexual abuse stuff I would of been a fan. 

 

20 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

The churchs teaching on gay sex is the most difficult one for me to accept, more difficult than the eucharist.

I'm really curious to know why. Maybe you won't be comfortable saying. But if you're I'm curious.

 

21 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

But, I am also utterly convinced of the cosmic gravity of sex in the universe and also that satan makes war with this method primarily. He hunts us via sex and God is trying to save us via sex, and I don't think Jesus would have agreed to die before giving us the proper teaching on this, it's that important.  

I agree. I see this in my life. If I told the details of my story it would kind of be crazy. I know the devil is literally real.

24 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Regarding Cardinal Newman. It's ok to be skeptical if he never fell sexually. But the point is he triumphed in the end. He wasn't a martyr graced with momentary heroic sanctity, and that suggests he achieved an exalted degree of integration and purity that was stable in life.

I will Google and read about him.

 

28 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

 

25 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

not to scandalize you, but the temptation to physicality between members of the same sex is very common in contemplative religious life, even among people that are "straight". This is a phenomenon known to happen in prisons as well. 

I don't see how a guy could hook up with a guy if he didn't have those inclinations to begin with. Maybe it's uncharitable on my part and a part of homophobia that still exist in me but I find it gross. Almost vomit gross. Although I'm not discrediting that it can't happen. But I don't know.

29 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

And it's just- we have to be careful not to think that sin is inevitable.  God does give us sufficient grace to remain out of mortal sin, he will never withdraw that, ever. The question is our response. With the saints, the response to grace is perfected even in this life. 

Yeah. I'm decent at staying out of mortal sin for awhile. But I always end up falling again eventually. The biggest thing for me now is trying to go to Confession immediately and not staying in mortal sin and committing more. That's where it becomes extremely dangerous and you risk going to hell. When you persist in it. I read awhile back it's human nature to fall. But it becomes demonic when you persist in it.

[Lilllabettt]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

I like this perspective. And it make sense on my understanding of God and his judgment.

 

Can you explain this? I'm hoping you're not going to say it's because all of our mortal sins are shown to everyone at the second judgement and we all rejoice at God's mercy. I've read this and I'm not a fan of it. Not that it would make it untrue just because I'm not a fan. But it also doesn't make sense. Maybe you're talking about something different though? I read a few weeks ago from Pope Francis that are sins won't be shown to everyone. That God will forget them. I really like Pope Francis. If he could of just did better with the sexual abuse stuff I would of been a fan. 

 

I'm really curious to know why. Maybe you won't be comfortable saying. But if you're I'm curious.

 

I agree. I see this in my life. If I told the details of my story it would kind of be crazy. I know the devil is literally real.

I will Google and read about him.

 

I don't see how a guy could hook up with a guy if he didn't have those inclinations to begin with. Maybe it's uncharitable on my part and a part of homophobia that still exist in me but I find it gross. Almost vomit gross. Although I'm not discrediting that it can't happen. But I don't know.

Yeah. I'm decent at staying out of mortal sin for awhile. But I always end up falling again eventually. The biggest thing for me now is trying to go to Confession immediately and not staying in mortal sin and committing more. That's where it becomes extremely dangerous and you risk going to hell. When you persist in it. I read awhile back it's human nature to fall. But it becomes demonic when you persist in it.

The simplest thing to point to is the crucifixion.  It's the worst sin possible, and yet God worked things so that the world is better, heaven is more glorious, etc. because the crucifixion took place. If Judas is in heaven, it's because God used his betrayal and suicide as an integral part of how he saved him. 

I am the same with finding it gross, with 2 men somewhat more gross than 2 girls. I don't think it's homophobia necessarily as much as being on the far straight end. Alot of gay (not bisexual) people find the concept of straight sex disgusting. 

The teaching on gay sex is difficult for me because life would be so much easier for so many people if it were different.  My bestie has SSA (shes celibate) and it's a burden to her. For me, there have been many times at work school, in my family and socially where I would like to be able to just be happy for people as opposed to being in the position where I have to feel sad.

[Guest]

When I first fell very ill, it was two homosexual males in a relationship that gave me support and acceptance.  All around me walked away including my parish and diocese, except our Archbishop at that time in private support and indeed encouragement.I do not agree with homosexual marriage. If they marry in a civil ceremony then to me they are united by the state in a permanent partnership, not a marriage. I do not believe homosexuals should be vilified, rejected or condemned. If I say they are living in mortal sin, then I am judging them and that Jesus commands we not do.  I might be in more hot water than I realise.

 We are asked to love without any exceptions whatsoever as Jesus does

Quote

 

"that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors 28 do the same?...So be perfect, 30 just as your heavenly Father is perfect." http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVE.HTM

 

 

If I wonder what on earth perfection is, Jesus tells me  in the above excerpt from The Sermon on The Mount.

[Guest]

I would like to add not being homophobic was/is a battle for me. I've forced myself to become very non homophobic. I think it took becoming non homophobic to this extreme to remove all the hate there. There was definitely hate there on my part before. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

What exactly is the passion that The Church has stated is disordered?