Mychal Judge

[dominicansoul]

But why Church with a capital C?  That tends to make me think somehow our teachings alienate certain groups of people...which is definitely NOT true!  If people feel alienated by the Church, it may be because they reject truth.  That’s on them, not the Church.  

The Catholic Church has reached out to lgbt waaaaaay before it was cool to do so.  The Courage program will be 50 years old soon.  Think of the countless souls saved by that wonderful apostolate!  

Sure there will always be some arse portals out there that alienate hundreds of groups and still call themselves catholic, but that’s a mortal sin and that’s on them, NOT the Church.  

I know Scripture states Jesus ate with sinners...but people like to forget he also admonished them and told them to “go and sin no more...”. That’s the part people love to ignore... so did Mychal Judge have confessions at these pride marches?  Did he have a sign stating “repent and be saved?”  If he did that, then maybe I would understand why he marched with them.  From what I gather about pride parades, they are a celebration of active homosexuality not just mere inclinations... it just seems to be something a Catholic  priest shouldn’t participate in, regardless of his good intentions.... 

Edited September 14, 2019 by dominicansoul

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

But why Church with a capital C?  That tends to make me think somehow our teachings alienate certain groups of people...which is definitely NOT true!  If people feel alienated by the Church, it may be because they reject truth.  That’s on them, not the Church.  

The Catholic Church has reached out to lgbt waaaaaay before it was cool to do so.  The Courage program will be 50 years old soon.  Think of the countless souls saved by that wonderful apostolate!  

Sure there will always be some arse portals out there that alienate hundreds of groups and still call themselves catholic, but that’s a mortal sin and that’s on them, NOT the Church.  

I am not too sure who you are responding to, DS.   For some, the only experience they have of The Church is at the parish or diocesan level.  These too are The Church, The Mystical Body of Christ on earth (the latter is why I put The Church in upper case).

My own understanding of the Teachings of The Church and Scripture was shaky I think until I was given this computer.  "Shaky" is possibly not a good choice, rather I was unsure of what was right and what was wrong, what was and was not taught.  Whatever is the right word, I was and am just a very ordinary Catholic out in the pews. 

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

I know Scripture states Jesus ate with sinners...but people like to forget he also admonished them and told them to “go and sin no more...”. That’s the part people love to ignore... so did Mychal Judge have confessions at these pride marches?  Did he have a sign stating “repent and be saved?”  If he did that, then maybe I would understand why he marched with them.  From what I gather about pride parades, they are a celebration of active homosexuality not just mere inclinations... it just seems to be something a Catholic  priest shouldn’t participate in, regardless of his good intentions.... 

It was not at table that Jesus told the sinners to go and sin no more. At table, He never moralised with them. Rather His moralisation was to a woman who was about to be stoned to death for adultery.  By telling her to sin no more, He was also admonishing her on how to avoid another situation of potential stoning to death.........after all to sin no more was impossible, which Jesus Himself points out.

We do have plenty of 'good' Catholics ready to 'stone to death' any and all the sinful.  What Jesus says at that same would be stoning is "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".  We probably all do like to forget that point either venially or mortally.

Indeed, the 'very good' do march with signs stating "Repent and Sin No More".  I think if we are honest with ourselves and that embraces probably the most of us, if not all of us, as Jesus asserts, we repent continually - and continually sin again and again along with repeated repentance all through our journey.  I certainly hope so..........and that includes the 'very good' who do march with signs in 'righteous' indignation wherever they might find the sinners.

1 hour ago, dominicansoul said:

 From what I gather about pride parades, they are a celebration of active homosexuality not just mere inclinations... it just seems to be something a Catholic  priest shouldn’t participate in, regardless of his good intentions.... 

 I think a priest, a nun or religious, a layperson needs go where the need is.  I think a few reasons they do not (and perhaps there are many more reasons) is :

1. a desire to protect reputation.

2. Perhaps it is a desire to not give scandal.

3.Perhaps it might be that the need is considered unworthy of the 'good' Catholic.

In 1 to 3 above, it is a very real problem of catechesis. - and of both the other AND oneself.

If one considers the Parable of The Good Samaritan, we are indeed called to be wherever the need might be without rationalisations of why one should not be there as in 1 to 3 above. 

Where there is need, there we are called.  Identifying need hitherto unidentified, and responding to it, can be a charism and gift of The Holy Spirit to The Church.  

____________

"Charism is frequently associated with the spirituality of religious institutes and this understanding of it will be addressed at another time. Here we will define it as a gift of the Holy Spirit given in a particular way to an individual or to a group to build up the Kingdom of God for the good of the Church." https://carmelitesistersocd.com/2015/what-is-a-charism/

Catholic Catechism

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church's shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255

Edited September 15, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Norseman82]

3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

I know Scripture states Jesus ate with sinners...but people like to forget he also admonished them and told them to “go and sin no more...”. That’s the part people love to ignore... so did Mychal Judge have confessions at these pride marches?  Did he have a sign stating “repent and be saved?”  If he did that, then maybe I would understand why he marched with them.  From what I gather about pride parades, they are a celebration of active homosexuality not just mere inclinations... it just seems to be something a Catholic  priest shouldn’t participate in, regardless of his good intentions.... 

I guess if that priest in Indiana with "Confessions on the go" were to ride his golf cart in one of those parades, I could see that...

[little2add]

On 9/13/2019 at 11:05 PM, Norseman82 said:

people are starting to fling Bible verses that have nothing to do with the subject in the hope of pulling the wool over our eyes

Yea, here’s another:

Jesus transcended cultural norms and was not above spending time with the outcasts of society. He spoke truth to sinners and loved them; He offered them hope, based on their repentance and faith in Himself (Mark 1:15).

 

Does this mean that He condoned the bad behavior, I don’t think so.

[Norseman82]

7 hours ago, little2add said:

Yea, here’s another:

Jesus transcended cultural norms and was not above spending time with the outcasts of society. He spoke truth to sinners and loved them; He offered them hope, based on their repentance and faith in Himself (Mark 1:15).

 

Does this mean that He condoned the bad behavior, I don’t think so.

Marching in a "pride" parade IS condoning it!!!!!  

(unless you are in the "Confessions To Go" golf cart inviting people there to confession... )

Edited September 15, 2019 by Norseman82

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Norseman82 said:

Marching in a "pride" parade IS condoning it!!!!!  

 

Basically. With that said I've seen multiple writers for Peter 1 5 along with Skojec himself refer to homosexuals as f a g g o t s. That's just as bad as marching in a pride parade. Maybe worse. I used to be homophobic. I'm not any longer. If it wasn't for my faith I would be indifferent/supportive of gay marriage. As of right now I'm against it but there's no hate there for the people. And I think writers for Catholic religious publications who refer to these people as f a g g o t s is really messed up. 

[Lilllabettt]

10 hours ago, little2add said:

Yea, here’s another:

Jesus transcended cultural norms and was not above spending time with the outcasts of society. He spoke truth to sinners and loved them; He offered them hope, based on their repentance and faith in Himself (Mark 1:15).

 

Does this mean that He condoned the bad behavior, I don’t think so.

You're leaving out the most important part.

Jesus had love, patience and compassion for 2 groups of people:

1. Outsiders aka unbelievers

2. Insiders who are contrite of heart, repentant, and beat their breast

These are the "sinners" Jesus loved to spend time with.

Other "sinners" did not do very well with him. At all. Probably the people that did the worst were those who were comfortable with their sin and should have known better.

St Paul says "not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one." (1 Corinthians) 

Priests are kind of the ultimate insider. They are held to a higher expectation than maybe anyone, Fr Judge included. I think we as laity would get better service from our priests if they understood how high the price is for bad service. And that Jesus is not going to go easy on them as insiders.

A LOT of our problems with sexual abuse come from normal men looking on sexual misbehavior from the perspective of "who am I to judge" "let the one without sin cast the first stone," etc. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

A LOT of our problems with sexual abuse come from normal men looking on sexual misbehavior from the perspective of "who am I to judge" "let the one without sin cast the first stone," etc. 

I don't think many men look at sexual abuse  and think who am I to judge. Let the one without sin cast the first stone ect. Actual abuse is messed up and most don't want to overlook it or let it slide. I say most because obviously some have and it's why we are where we're at. That includes law enforcement and people in all walks of life. Not just Catholic authority figures.

Where I will agree with the statement is when you're talking about two consenting adults. I for one don't like calling people out. Not that I shouldn't try to call them out in love but it's tough. Probably because of my own sins and then just the fact we are sexual beings. God made us this way with these very strong desires. Holiness is possible but it's tough calling out consenting adults. I should probably tell my divorced dad he shouldn't live with his gf. Will I? Maybe I can try to get the point across to him. But them again it's not easy. And to be honest I don't think he's going to hell because of it. And God Bless Saint Paul but I'm not going to cut him off. If you're a Priest it's your job to let people know. So hopefully you can find the courage to do it. Not an easy task though. Hopefully God understands.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Guest

[Lilllabettt]

27 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't think many men look at sexual abuse  and think who am I to judge. Let the one without sin cast the first stone ect. Actual abuse is messed up and most don't want to overlook it 

Well, that's my explanation for why normal "decent" people covered up abuse and moved priests around. To this day, a catholic church in KS is supporting Theodore Mccarrick, even though they have no legal obligation to (he was laicized). I work for the church and even in this day and age it's not unusual to hear a priest comment that "we can't turn our back on our brothers" when one is caught in illicit sex acts (not with minors), or financial crimes.  And, they don't want to disclose information because it's uncharitable and it's detraction. Fr. What's his name just needs treatment, or a second chance, or a fresh start.  

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Well, that's my explanation for why normal "decent" people covered up abuse and moved priests around. To this day, a catholic church in KS is supporting Theodore Mccarrick, even though they have no legal obligation to (he was laicized). I work for the church and even in this day and age it's not unusual to hear a priest comment that "we can't turn our back on our brothers" when one is caught in illicit sex acts (not with minors), or financial crimes.  And, they don't want to disclose information because it's uncharitable and it's detraction. Fr. What's his name just needs treatment, or a second chance, or a fresh start.  

I don't know if decent people cover those type of things up. I think you cease being decent when you cover for it and continue to without a change of heart. Not claiming I'm a decent person but I would never cover or protect a person who I knew sexualy abused others. And how this happened/happens when kids are involved is mind blowing. I don't even want to think about it. It makes me question Catholicism/Religion to its very core.

You're right though. Its why I'm not a fan of Francis. Because how he handled victims and those who abused them.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

 

Quote

Romans Chapter 13: "Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves."

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's"  Matthew Chapter 22

When the law of the land states those crimes which must be reported to police, they must be reported. (Giving to Caesar what is Caesar's)  It does not mean that one does not continue to be supportive of the person reported - to "journey with them" as Pope Francis has said. (Giving to God what is God's)

The comment of Francis "who am I to judge" has been misinterpreted https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-explains-who-am-i-to-judge-in-his-new-book-21443

Pope Francis has written a book which includes his comments on "Who am I to judge?" https://www.amazon.com/The-Name-God-Is-Mercy/dp/0399588639

___________________________

"Who am I to judge?"

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-explains-who-am-i-to-judge-in-his-new-book-21443

“On that occasion I said this:  If a person is gay and seeks out the Lord and is willing, who am I to judge that person?” Pope Francis told Tornielli. “I was paraphrasing by heart the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says that these people should be treated with delicacy and not be marginalized.”

“I am glad that we are talking about 'homosexual people' because before all else comes the individual person, in his wholeness and dignity. And people should not be defined only by their sexual tendencies: let us not forget that God loves all his creatures and we are destined to receive his infinite love. I prefer that homosexuals come to confession, that they stay close to the Lord, and that we pray all together. You can advise them to pray, show goodwill, show them the way, and accompany them along it.”

[Guest]

There is an obvious dilemma in what St Paul wrote about obedience to authority, with authority as being ordained by God.  I think it is up to a person's conscience how that dilemma is resolved.  

There is also a dilemma for Church Teaching and the Seal of Confession.  It is a dilemma for Church Teaching to resolve.

Caesar may well demand what belongs to God and in that instance I do not think personally I am called to obey Caesar.

[Norseman82]

6 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

A LOT of our problems with sexual abuse come from normal men looking on sexual misbehavior from the perspective of "who am I to judge" "let the one without sin cast the first stone," etc. 

 

6 hours ago, Josh said:

I don't think many men look at sexual abuse  and think who am I to judge.

From what I've seen, the statements that Lilllabettt refers to may not be the cause of sexual abuse so much as the "ho-hum" permissive attitude towards sexual immorality in today's society.  I see the sexual abuse problem as more of a result of putting priests and the Church (as an institution) on too high a pedestal to the point that anyone who tries to point out a problem is slammed as a bad dissenting Catholic (even if he/she checks all the boxes for the Catholic orthodoxy test), and that enabled the problem to get as bad as it did.  Couple that with the fact that most of the known abuse cases were done by priests that were ordained or in the seminary while the U.S. was either at war or had the draft, as I theorize that many sexually "sick" people may have entered the seminary as a respectable way of avoiding military service or the draft, where they may have been "outed".

5 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

Well, that's my explanation for why normal "decent" people covered up abuse and moved priests around. To this day, a catholic church in KS is supporting Theodore Mccarrick, even though they have no legal obligation to (he was laicized). I work for the church and even in this day and age it's not unusual to hear a priest comment that "we can't turn our back on our brothers" when one is caught in illicit sex acts (not with minors), or financial crimes.  And, they don't want to disclose information because it's uncharitable and it's detraction. Fr. What's his name just needs treatment, or a second chance, or a fresh start. 

I think that is sad that this occurs (which is why I reacted with the "sad" smiley, not because I was against your post, which I think is "spot on"). 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Norseman82

[tinytherese]

22 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

Well, that's my explanation for why normal "decent" people covered up abuse and moved priests around. To this day, a catholic church in KS is supporting Theodore Mccarrick, even though they have no legal obligation to (he was laicized). I work for the church and even in this day and age it's not unusual to hear a priest comment that "we can't turn our back on our brothers" when one is caught in illicit sex acts (not with minors), or financial crimes.  And, they don't want to disclose information because it's uncharitable and it's detraction. Fr. What's his name just needs treatment, or a second chance, or a fresh start.  

I know that in Christian circles that some can take the Gospel message of forgiveness to an unhealthy extreme. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean that what the person did was right, that the person shouldn't be held accountable for the wrong that they committed, or that you have to trust the person again. We don't want to fall into enabling anyone. 

[Guest]

 

3 hours ago, tinytherese said:

We don't want to fall into enabling anyone. 

Absolutely.