Pro Choice

[VeraMaria]

hey to ALL those who replied:

i don't believe abortion is right..i would never get one nor would i ever tell anyone else to... why am i prochoice then?  simply because i don't think the government has the right to impose christian beliefs on those who aren't.  i say, if you are catholic, don't get an abortion..but that doesn't mean you can tell the atheist he can't either..

But on one side this doesn't have anything to do with faith!! I mean, even an atheist can see that murdring babies is JUST WRONG!!! It's not that it's some weird thinbg that the Catholic Church came up with and thatonly Cathoolics believe!

Not only is it wrong from a religious point of view but from a MORAL, HUMAN point of view...

OK, I'm not making any sense, how do I explain what I'm trying to say...bear with me for a sec...

*scratches head and tries to put it more eloquently (Mission unsuccessful!)*

[Dave]

BlondeWithABrain:

You say the government has no right to impose Christian beliefs on those who aren't? Well then, according to your logic, the government should repeal all laws against murder, theft, rape, prostitution, drug dealing, drug possession, drunk driving, pedophilia, assault, etc.! Why? Because the government is imposing Christian beliefs on those who aren't!

Kinda inconsistent, your position, eh?

Also, if you vote for pro-abortion candidates, you have no business receiving the sacraments because you're committing mortal sin. Receiving Holy Communion in the state of mortal sin is sacrilege -- another mortal sin. In addition, going to confession when you're not truly resolved to stop sinning (in this case voting for pro-abortion candidates) is also sacrilegious.

Edited September 1, 2003 by Dave

[ironmonk]

blonde,

SHOULD RAPE BE A MATTER OF CHOICE?

by Thaddee Renault

Using the arguments politicians so often use to justify their unwillingness to legislate and criminalize abortion, one would be led to think so. The popular expression is to say that "I am personally opposed to abortion", but that "I shouldn’t impose my morality or beliefs on others." Looking at this stand from another point of view, I could just as reasonably state that "I am personally opposed to RAPE sweeping this country and would not participate in such an act, but I have no right to impose my morality on others; rather the RAPIST should have the right to choose, and this decision should be made between the RAPIST and his attorney." And I could go on to say that those fanatical anti-RAPE groups are using emotional pictures of aborted fetuses to dramatize their anti-choice position. Most of them, you see, attend churches which hold similar views. That makes this a religious issue and that’s a clear violation of separation of church and state. Also making RAPE illegal won’t stop all of the incidents, it will only make criminals out of the RAPISTS. Therefore, the only alternative is legalization. That’s why I support RAPE on demand. After all you can’t legislate morality. Furthermore, during an election year, we must vote for those pro-choice politicians who endorse permissive RAPE laws. With liberalization, RAPE will become quick and efficient, performed out in the open, under ideal conditions. Do we want to ever return to the days of back-alley rape? Gimme a break!

Evidently, this silly rationalization of rape is farfetched. But it serves to illustrate the illogical and incredibly stupid attitude of our lawmakers where the regulation of pre-natal infanticide is concerned. In those rare instances where pregnancy results from rape intercourse, society singles out the innocent unborn child for execution and misplaces on the fetus the anger which should be more appropriately directed towards the rapist who committed the monstrous crime. In most cases, the rape victim who has been aborted is then abandoned, as if her need for care ended with the death of her child. Do we punish other criminals by killing their children? Can a child innocent of any crime be attacked and killed in a most painful fashion with the attacker completely safe from being prosecuted? Isn`t it a twisted logic that would kill an innocent unborn baby for the sick behaviour of his or her father? It is the assailant who should be punished, not the innocent baby. Let’s keep the focus on the victim, the baby who is being killed. In Canada over 100,000 babies are aborted each year and less than 1% of these abortions are done because of rape and incest. Those who promote abortion rarely talk about the remaining 99%. The life taken in an abortion belongs only to the baby, not to the mother or anyone else. No person has the right to talk of compromising, using the baby’s life.

More writings can be found at http://www.knightsite.com/kc9496/unborn.htm

Proverbs 31:8-9

Open thy mouth for the dumb, and for the causes of all the children that pass. Open thy mouth, decree that which is just, and do justice to the needy and poor.

Sirach 4:28

Even to death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you.

As a Catholic - You have an obligation to be unconditionally pro-Life. If you are not, then you are not a real Catholic....

God Bless,

ironmonk

Edited September 1, 2003 by ironmonk

[Chastisement]

hey to ALL those who replied:

i don't believe abortion is right..i would never get one nor would i ever tell anyone else to... why am i prochoice then?  simply because i don't think the government has the right to impose christian beliefs on those who aren't.  i say, if you are catholic, don't get an abortion..but that doesn't mean you can tell the atheist he can't either..

You have to ask yourself "Why do I beleive abortion is wrong?"

If you come up with an answer like "It is because the unborn is a child, with a right to life", why then, do you allow others to take that child's life simply because the chilld is the someone' elses.

Are you children some how better, and more deserving of life then someone elses?

I'm Pro-Life, yes, but when I defend my PL beleifs I become an instant aethiest, and not one mention of God or religion comes into play. Without even mentioning God, I once got a Gay man to change his views from Pro-Choice to Pro-Life.

Religion should have no busines being in the abortion debate as it renders it relative and subjective.

Also, interesting tibit, the ancient Eygptains didn't look kindly on abortion, and they had nothign to do with Christainity.

Oh, and male athetiests can't get abortions... ;)

Edited September 1, 2003 by Chastisement

[Jake Huether]

I was born 2 months pre-mature...

Was I a lump of flesh for 2 months before I became a human after the 9th month passed?

Had I stayed in the womb for 1 month and 30 days more, and was terminated on my way out, it would have been legal.

If my mom decided to murder me just 5 minutes after I was born, then she would probably still be in jail.

Where's the logic!

Just last week there was news of a 5 month old "fetus" that was born and serviveved. So, now, was he not human for 4 months!

Or does a fetus become a human, as some numbskull talkshow host states, when the baby is takes it's firts breath of air? (when anyone with half a whit would know that babies recieve oxegen in the womb - just in a different medium).

Urrr.. I hate this topic... I wish it wasn't a "topic".

It's just pure fact, a life is a life from conception.

Anyone who doesn't believe that is either lied to, or lying.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe girl I occasionally babysit was aborted at 28 weeks.

She has no earthly value to many people, several wish she had never been born, other think she should hae been allowed to die.

She cannot talk or walk.

But she does one thing than anybody I know : Maggie May loves.

Praise God.

[dUSt]

http://www.standupgirl.com/inside/index.html

[ironmonk]

Just Punishment

by Brian O´Neel

Canon lawyers are dubious about the prospects for excommunication of Catholic politicians who support abortion, but other disciplinary measures are available.

February 27, 2002 / In northern California, Sacramento-area residents recently opened their newspapers to learn that for the first time since he entered Congress, Rep. John Doolittle, a stalwart abortion opponent, would have a primary challenger in this year’s Republican primary election.

While the man who would be challenging the five-term congressman criticized Doolittle on several grounds, he was particularly harsh in his characterization of the conservative legislator’s pro-life stance: “His hard anti-abortion stand is unacceptable,” said the challenger, Dr. Bill Kirby. “I’m a Catholic, but I believe what a woman does with her body should be between her and her God, not the government.”

If successful in his bid to oust Doolittle, Kirby would join a host of other Catholic elected officials around the world who profess beliefs directly contrary to those of their Church, particularly on the issue of abortion.

This phenomenon is not confined to the United States. The Canadian prime minister, Jean Chretien, identifies himself as a Catholic and is an outspoken proponent of legal abortion, as is Joe Clark, the former Tory prime minister. inDouche, in the nations of the industrialized West, scores of prominent Catholics who hold elective office are not pro-life. But it is in the US that the role of “pro-choice” Catholic politicians has caused the most heated debate.

A vivid demonstration of the power of pro-abortion Catholic legislators came when the US Congress attempted to override President Bill Clinton’s vetoes of bills that would have outlawed partial-birth abortions. Despite the gruesome nature of the procedure, and the unusually vocal admonitions from the US bishops, the effort to override the presidential veto twice fell just short of the necessary two-thirds majority in the Senate. In each case, nominally Catholic senators provided the margin of defeat.

The Excommunication Option

Both Pope John Paul II and various bishops’ conferences around the world have reiterated, time and again, the responsibility of all Catholics—and especially those in public life—to foster a culture of life. In 1998 the US bishops released a document called Living the Gospel of Life. In that document—released as the debate on partial-birth abortion was at its zenith—the bishops affirmed:

Catholics who . . . serve in public leadership positions have an obligation to place their faith at the heart of their public service, particularly on issues regarding the sanctity of human life. We urge those Catholic officials who . . . depart from the Church teaching on the inviolability of human life in their public life . . . to reflect on the grave contradiction of assuming public office and presenting themselves as credible Catholics when their actions on fundamental issues of human life are not in agreement with Church teaching . . . . No appeal to policy, procedure, majority will, or pluralism ever excuses a public official from defending life to the greatest extent possible.

The remarkable thing, however, is that as such statements from Catholic bishops have become increasingly clear and emphatic, the voting performance of Catholic politicians has become steadily worse. The resulting frustration has caused some Catholics to look for new ways to bring pressure to bear on pro-abortion Catholic officials. In Sacramento, California, one pastor, Msgr. Edward Kavanagh, went so far as to write that the ostensibly Catholic Governor Gray Davis “has brought on himself automatic excommunication” because of his support for abortion.

While few Church leaders in the US have mentioned the possibility of excommunication for politicians who support abortion, that option has been explored in other countries. In Mexico City last year, Cardinal Norberto Rivera responded to efforts to liberalize abortion laws in his country by saying “anyone who promotes or practices abortion, including legislators and governors, will be excommunicated by the Church.” Colombia’s bishops also mentioned excommunication during a July debate on that country’s abortion laws. And in Peru, Lima’s Cardinal Juan Luis Cipriani instructed pastors to deny Communion to public officials who persisted in public support for abortion.

Emboldened by those prelates, thousands of American Catholics have signed a petition asking Pope John Paul II to pronounce excommunication on prominent American pro-abortion politicians such as Senators Ted Kennedy and Tom Daschle. “It is impossible to be Catholic and pro-abortion at the same time,” explains Judie Brown, the president of American Life League, who is among the leaders of the petition drive. “Pro-abortion Catholic lawmakers have become a stumbling block for faithful Catholics.” The petition lists as defendants approximately 50 members of Congress, as well as a number of other current or former political office holders.

Is It Realistic?

Do Catholic politicians who publicly reject the teachings of their faith deserve excommunication? At first glance the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2272) seems clear: “Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.” As many faithful Catholics see it, a vote for legal abortion, or for the funding of abortions, constitutes formal cooperation in the act. Thus many people believe that a pro-abortion Catholic politician incurs excommunication.

But according to several canon lawyers, the issue is not so clear. Phil Gray, a canonist in Ohio, explains:

Canonically speaking, “formal cooperation” involves the doctor who performs the abortion, the nurse who assists, the woman having the abortion, the man who agrees to take his wife or girlfriend, the person who drives the woman to the clinic—and even that last one is questionable. With legislators, what you have is probably best termed “material cooperation.”

Edward Peters, professor of canon law for the Institute of Pastoral Theology at Ave Maria University in Ypsilanti, Michigan, agrees. “You can only incur excommunication for a specific offense,” he emphasizes. “Although having an abortion can result in an excommunication, governmental support for abortion is not a similar offense.”

Some pro-life activists make the argument that a vote for taxpayer funding of abortion is a specific act, enabling poor women to procure abortions. That, they argue, is formal cooperation. But Peters replies:

People who make that argument are possibly using Canon 1329 [which prescribes excommunication for accomplices in such offenses as abortion], and are trying to characterize these people as accomplices. The problem is that in order to be an accomplice to an action, you have to be able to show that, but for this vote that freed up X number of dollars, this abortion would not have taken place. What if the bill passes by two votes? Whose vote do you blame?

Peters also makes a more general point about the interpretation of canon law: “Canon 18 is clear that whenever you’re talking about sanctions, you have to read those canons very narrowly—as narrowly as can reasonably be interpreted and still mean something.”

Neither Peters nor Gray believes petitioning the Vatican to excommunicate prominent politicians will succeed. “Anybody can request that from Rome,” says Gray. “But authorities there will turn to the principle of subsidiarity. Local bishops need to address this first . . . . They’re the ones that need to be doing something about these guys.”

The Political Options

Both canonists agree, however, that politicians who promote the culture of death by their pro-abortion stance are guilty of grave sin. “If someone takes this sort of public stand while also receiving Communion, they put themselves out to be practicing Catholics, even though they’re putting themselves at odds with the Church,” adds Gray. It is a grave sin “because they are adhering to a belief that is contrary to the magisterium of the Church and contrary to the natural law.” He goes on to point out: “Canon 750 says you are not to hold anything contrary to the truth as taught by the Catholic Church.”

Germain Grisez, a noted Christian ethicist at Mount St. Mary’s College in Emmitsburg, Maryland, believes that anyone who supports legal abortion should reconsider seeking public office. And he rejects the notion that a public official could be personally opposed to abortion, yet support the legality of the procedure:

If they say “I’m personally opposed, but . . . ,” it seems to me that maybe they’re being insincere and saying this because it’s politically advantageous. On the other hand, if they’re sincere in this, it seems to me they’re confused. Opposition to abortion is not a matter of taste. If one is personally opposed to it, it is because one recognizes that it is the killing of an unborn individual and a grave injustice is involved. If someone thinks otherwise, they’re deeply confused. It seems to me that someone that badly confused about something that obvious or who is insincere is not a trustworthy person to hold any public office.

Some Catholic politicians have explained their pro-abortion votes by saying that they do not have the right to impose their own religious beliefs on other citizens. But William May, a professor of moral theology at the John Paul II Institute in Washington, DC, answers that argument:

The point of when human life begins is not a religious belief, so you can’t say you’re forcing your religious beliefs on someone. Rather, it is a scientific fact on which there is clear agreement even among leading abortion advocates. Second, the sanctity of human life is not merely Catholic doctrine but part of humanity’s global ethical heritage and our nation’s founding principle. Finally, democracy is not served by silence. Real pluralism depends on people of conviction struggling vigorously to advance their beliefs by every ethical and legal means at their disposal.

Other Sanctions

If Catholic politicians who oppose their Church on the issue of abortion are not automatically excommunicated, are there other canonical penalties that could be applied? Edward Peters says that a bishop who wants to censure a pro-abortion Catholic politician has several options:

Canon 1369 says, “A person is to be punished with a just penalty, who, at a public event or assembly or in a published writing . . . gravely harms public morals or . . . excites contempt for religion or the Church.” What if you’re speaking on the floor for an abortion bill? You can be punished with anything from a reprimand all the way up to excommunication.

Certainly a bishop could refuse the Eucharist to someone who persists in a grave sin. In fact even a parish priest could make that decision. “The question is have they been warned?” says Gray. He continues:

Canon 915 says that those who obstinately persevere in manifest grave sin cannot be admitted to Communion. “Obstinate” means you have to be warned; you have to be told it’s a grave sin; you have to be told to stop; and you have to be told what the penalty would be. If you ignore that warning and continue to cling to that sinfulness publicly, at that point several punishments are an option.

In America today, Gray concedes, “There’s not a Catholic politician who doesn’t know what the Church teaches. That means they’re conscious of the fact that their support of abortion is a grave evil.” Nevertheless, he argues that they should not be refused the Eucharist until they have received a formal warning.

Other options also exist. Charles Wilson of the St. Joseph Foundation in San Antonio, Texas—an organization that specializes in the application of canon law—advocates putting some politicians on trial in an ecclesial court, so that a fair public hearing of the evidence could be had. There is also talk of making a public denunciation of a public official before that person’s bishop.

Nonetheless, it is with the bishops themselves that the real power resides, and few bishops in recent memory have taken action against public dissenters. One exception was Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska, who in the mid-1990s excommunicated members of Catholics for a Free Choice. Just prior to the 2000 election, the late Bishop James McHugh of the Diocese of Rockville Center, New York, directed his pastors to remove from any parish position those who held pro-abortion views; he explicitly included public figures who claimed to be “personally opposed” but showed themselves—as he put it—”unwilling to integrate their moral principles with civic responsibilities.”

Creating A Martyr

Of course, if a bishop imposes any form of discipline on a pro-abortion Catholic politician, that individual could quickly attain the status of a martyr-figure among dissenting Catholics and other proponents of abortion. For some Catholic officials, defiance of the Church is a carefully calculated political stance.

David Carlin has an interesting perspective on that issue, as a former majority leader of the Rhode Island state Senate and a member of Democrats for Life. Of one prominent pro-abortion Catholic politician from Rhode Island, he says:

He could get elected here as a pro-lifer, but that would bring him grief from the fanatics on the other side, and it would ruin his chances to climb even further up the national Democratic ladder. Morally and religiously, he has taken the wrong stand, but politically he has taken the smart stand.

Carlin observes that while many Catholic constituents disapprove of the official’s stance on abortion, they nonetheless continue to cast ballots for him. In fact, he sees this voting pattern repeated regularly—not only in Rhode Island but all across America. The net result, he says, is: “The more Catholics a state has, the more likely it will send pro-choicers to Washington, and the fewer Catholics it has, the less likely.”

“In the end,” Carlin says, “the problem isn’t Catholic politicians: It’s the Catholic voters.”

[Luke2219]

“In the end,” Carlin says, “the problem isn’t Catholic politicians: It’s the Catholic voters.”

Amen to that. Thanks for posting that; it was very intersting. I think that the Church needs to speak out publicly about these Cathlic imposters in our government. Excommunicate them if they need to, but the message needs to be sent to the faithful, that you cannot be pro-abortion, or pro-life-but, and still be Catholic. The message also needs to be sent to the rest of the world that pro-abortion people are not Catholic.

But we also need to let the bishops know that we will stand behind them. Granted, they should do it whether we stand behind them or not, but they are still people and need our support. We can't just sit back and point fingers at everyone else. We must convert the world by first converting ourselves.

(BYW, I don't mean "pro-abortion people are not Catholic" in the strict exclusionary sense. I'm not sure how to explain it, but I think that most of you know what I mean.)

[jasJis]

hey to ALL those who replied:

i don't believe abortion is right..i would never get one nor would i ever tell anyone else to... why am i prochoice then?  simply because i don't think the government has the right to impose christian beliefs on those who aren't.  i say, if you are catholic, don't get an abortion..but that doesn't mean you can tell the atheist he can't either..

May the peace of Christ be with you, BlondewithaBrain.

That's a very good point. For a good answer that's not muddled in a debate about abortion (it seems it's preaching to the choir), maybe you should start a thread and ask where does Civil Government derive it's authority from. Or ask if Civil Government has the right to legislate according to Christian Morality?

[JP2Iloveyou]

May the peace of Christ be with you, BlondewithaBrain.

That's a very good point. For a good answer that's not muddled in a debate about abortion (it seems it's preaching to the choir), maybe you should start a thread and ask where does Civil Government derive it's authority from. Or ask if Civil Government has the right to legislate according to Christian Morality?

Yes. A civil government not only has the right, but the responsibility to legislate according to Christian morality. First of all, all laws are the objective imposition of a subjective moral view. Let me give you an example. Legislator A says that the speed limit on the highway should be 55 mph. The legislature takes a vote and the speed limit is set at 55 mph. now, let's suppose that you don't like this law. You say, "Wait! You can't impose your morality that we should only be able to drive 55 on me!" I'm going to drive 75. Believe me, that argument will not fly when you get nailed by Joe State Trooper.

Now, let's take that same argument and apply it to a different law. I can think of at least four things that are outlawed in the United States alone because of Christian morality. In the 10 Commandments, which, clearly, are a Judeo/Christian symbol, given the ACLU's and other left-wing neo-communist groups obsession with their removal from public, on the grounds that it violates the 1st Amendment, we humans are forbidden from, among other things, killing, stealing, lying (Thou shalt not bear false witness), and raping people (Though shalt not commit adultery. Rape is certainly a form of adultery.) Now, no one could seriously argue that we should allow murder, theft, rape, and perjury to take place simply because banning these crimes is imposing Christian values on people. Likewise, with the case of abortion, it is a scientific fact, not my opinion, not the Church's opinion, not anyone's opinion, but a fact, that life begins at conception. There are no two ways around this, but that's for another post on another day.

When, yes that's right, when, abortion is outlawed in this country, no one will seriously be able to argue that it is imposing Christian values on people because we will have finally wised up to the fact that an unborn baby is just as human as you or me. If someone does object to that, however, I believe I have shown why that would be an absurd argument to make. I'd be happy to clarify if this post was vague.

[JP2Iloveyou]

I thought of something else I didn't put in my previous topic about voting for pro-choice politicians. Imagine a person running for United States Senate saying that, "I personally feel that it is wrong to rape women, but I also am not willing to impose my Christian view on society." Voting for a person with such an idea would be gravely wrong. Likewise voting for someone who openly supports abortion is gravely wrong. This can be hard, especially if you agree with their stance on EVERY OTHER issue. It is of no importance though. Consider this situation. Another candidate is running for office. He says everything you agree with about economic policy, foreign policy, the size and scope of government, taxes, education, and health care. Then, he goes on to say that he supports the legalized killing of all people under the age of 18. Could you possibly in your right mind vote for such an individual? I couldn't. Anyone who could needs to seriously examine their conscience.