Pro Choice

[BlondewithaBrain]

hey everyone..i know abortion is a hot topic..but i just want to know what everyone thinks..do catholics who are pro-choice sinning? I'm not completely pro-choice or pro-life, i'm kind of caught in the middle. please, don't get into a huge abortion debate..I've probably heard most of it already. Is not believing in the church's teaching's a sin? thanks in advance..

[Aloysius]

i know u said not to get into a heated abortion debate, but sorry, i can't not do that.

Legally, Abortion is unconstitutional. All men are guarenteed life, liberty, then the persuit of happiness or property. These were not placed in a random order, or just a poetic order, they're placed in an order of importance.

You have no right to liberty if it threatens someone's right to life. You have no right to happiness or property when it threatens someone's right to liberty or life. Choice is under the liberty category.

Rape victems are not helped by having an abortion, it only adds to the trauma. that's proven.

ummm,, as to whether or not you're in sin by this opinion, i'm not quite sure. If you know the Church teachings are all true, and you ignore one of them, you commit a sin. If you don't know the teachings are all true... umm.. this is where i need some help from some smarter phatmassers than I.

and just to let you know, you can't post on anything Catholic anything that even has a shred of pro-choice in it without expecting a debate, a VERY HEATED debate, in which the pro-lifers will win but the pro-choicers won't admit it.

Pax et Amo Christi!

[cmotherofpirl]

If you are a Catholic who believes in murdering babies, you sin.

No Faithful Catholic can consider this acceptable. If you assist someone in getting an abortion or pay for it, or counsel them to do it, you are excommunicated.

THere is no MIDDLE ground in murder.

Edited August 30, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[gopherball33]

Let me give you an example of why abortion is killing.I know you said that you don't want a debate, but oh well. There is a football player for the Michigan Wolverines (cornerback) named Marlin Jackson. He is the pre-season Big Ten Defender of the Year. Marlin's father told his mother to have an abortion. She didn't. (They weren't married) Nine months later Marlin's mother walked into the barbershop where the father worked, said this is your son, and walked out. That was the only time he ever saw the PERSON that he wanted to MURDER. If Marlin's mom had gone through with the abortion, then this man would not exist except for the fact that he would be a statistic for abortions. This HUMAN would never have taken a breath. This HUMAN never would have had a chance to play football. He never would have had a chance to do anything.

[littleflower+JMJ]

thou shall not murder....

abortion is murder

you support it, you will also be guilty of murder

God meant what He said, He gave us Life, ONLY He can take it away....not us

its a grave sin to be pro-choice, like cmom said you can be excommunicated

anyone should who supports abortion

dont be lukewarm! thats the most dangerous thing one can be!

there is NO middle ground when it comes to killing innocent babies from the wombs!

+JMJ

Our Lady of the Rosary, Intercede for all the innocent babies and victims of abortion!

[IXpenguin21]

if your friend came to you and said they weren't really oposed to or in favor of sleeping with her boyfriend because he wants to (obviously before marriage), and you knew the church's teaching was a certain way, could you look her in the eye and not say anything to explain the issues she's confused about to help her make a sound moral decision? "...in what my thoughts and in my words, in what i've done and what i have failed to do..."

so many people would say that yes, it is a sin to know something and fail to live it or proclaim it as it says in the bible to proclaim the gospel.

hope you find the answers you're looking for!

PAX

Edited August 30, 2003 by IXpenguin21

[Luke2219]

It is sinful to willfully ignore the teachings of the Church on matters of faith and morals if you are Catholic. "Honor thy father and mother." The cathechism teaches that this extends to all those with legitmate authority over you. That would include the Church in the matter of abortion. Being undecided like you mentioned is okay as long as you know the right answer (what the Church teaches) and work to form your concience so that you believe what the Church teaches. If I disagree with the Church on a matter of faith or morals, I am wrong. I then must determine where my error lies and better form my concience.

Catholics who are pro-abortion (this includes those who say "Abortion is wrong, but I don't want to impose my beliefs) not only sin against the fourth commandment, but are also commiting scandal. By saying that they are Catholic and pro-abortion, they are presenting to the rest of the world the wrong idea about what Catholics are.

This is not the same as people like me who speak out against all sin but still commit sins. Although, in certain cases, there may be scandal involved, I don't claim that my sins are okay. I claim they are as bad as when anyone else does them. Probably worse for me since I've been blessed with more of the truth in the Catholic church. But if I were to take a particular sin like abortion or extramarital sex and say that I can do these things, that they are okay, and that I'm a faithful Catholic, then I am commiting the serious sin of scandal, and also dissobeying my Holy Mother Church.

[VanHooty]

Legally, Abortion is unconstitutional.

Just to be nit-picky, the "infinite and always correct" wisdom of the Supreme Court seems to disagree... <_<

[Dave]

Let's not call being supportive of abortion being pro-choice. What does the pro-choice person feel women should have a choice to do? Kill their baby, that's what! To support abortion is not to be pro-choice; it's to be PRO-ABORTION, PRO-DEATH, or PRO-MURDER.

[Aloysius]

the supreme court has messed up this order before. Remember slavery? it put the white ppl's right to own property (pursue happiness) ahead of the black ppl's right to freedom. now it puts the woman's right to choice (liberty) over the baby's right to life.

Dred Scott decidision and Roe V. Wade make the same tip turning of the inalienable rights, except Roe V. Wade is a step up the more serious ladder.

[Luke2219]

Let's not call being supportive of abortion being pro-choice. What does the pro-choice person feel women should have a choice to do? Kill their baby, that's what! To support abortion is not to be pro-choice; it's to be PRO-ABORTION, PRO-DEATH, or PRO-MURDER.

Absolutely right. To be fair though, most "pro-choice" people are for the choice of having a baby or not, not killing. They fail to realize that once a child is conceived, it amounts to the same thing.

I am "pro-choice." I believe that a woman should be able to choose when to have a child. That choice however is made when a woman decides to have sex, not when she decides to bear the child she already created. Even "protected" sex is a choice to have a child if one is brought into being by that act. "Protected" sex can still result in pregnancy, and you cannot destroy the life you created even if you never intended to create it. This also applys to the tragic case of a pregnancy that results from rape. Although the woman had no choice, she still cannot destroy the child that resulted.

It is a sad time for us when our culture is filled with lies like it is today. Our culture says that "we have NO choice about having sex. That we are going to have sex and we have no control over it. That we SHOULD do it as often as possible. That we will go crazy if we don't give in to our sexual desires whenever and wherever we please." That is not pro-choice. That is slavery to our body and to sin. I've never heard of anyone dieing of virginity. Although if I pay attention to MTV, I'd be worring about all those poor souls who don't have sex and are gradualy wasting away. "Give condoms to our kids; they are going to have sex anyway, they can't help themselves. " This is a horrilbe lie that is a plague on our society. This leads us to belive that abortion must be okay. If a person can't help but to have sex, and person should have a right to choose to have a child or not, then the choice must lie in abortion. It certainly can't lie in chastity; we have no control over that. BUNK! WE DO have control over our bodies. Control over our sexual desires is true freedom. We have the power to be chaste, not to destroy the life inside the womb.

Now a new lie has already stemmed from this one. We now have no control over our sexual orientation. We were born either man, woman, homosexual man, homosexual woman, bisexual man, bisexual woman, or transgender man, or transgender woman. I don't know if that is the current set of "politcaly correct" currently defined genders, but it's insane to think that God created any other gender than man or woman. But hail to the elightenment! Now we know that we can't change our orientation. But we can change our gender. Thought the miracle of science, if you are a women who was accidentaly born with male sex organs, we can fix that for you. You can't choose your orientation, but you can choose which set of sexual organs you have. UGH!

Soon, what I just said will be considered hate speech. Hate speech is confiming someone in something that will destroy them. If a blind man was walking across the street and about to get hit by a bus, a good person would push him out of the way. Or scream at him to move. It might hurt him if we slam him to the ground out of harms way or it might hurt him that we screamed at him. But that doesn't mean we let him get hit by the bus and die. Also, we can't get mad at him becasue he's blind. The same goes for this. If we love our neighbor, then we can't let him destroy himself or mutilate his body becasue we don't want to hurt his feelings. We must tell him that if he doesn't turn around, he's going to get hit by a bus. At the same time, we can't get mad at him because he is blind. Blind to the truth. It is hateful to lie to someone and let them continue on a path that will destroy them. It is love that tells someone they are wrong even when it hurts.

Sorry about the rant. This topic made my blood start to boil.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Pax Christi

wow, everyone already said everything I was gonna say.shoot.

If you are truely stuck in the 'Middle' on this issue and not realy sure where to go, why not check out Dust's Pro-Life page and see for yourself the results of abortion, if by reading and viewing that page you still feel in the 'Middle' then I would talk to your local Priest about it and hopefully clear things up.

I liked that football story above, it got me thinking (uh oh). You know how we are all called to something great, we each have a purpose in this world, some task. But what if a woman was pregnant with a baby that was destined to stop a war, or a murder or was suppose to be one of the Holy Fathers body guards on the day he was shot..and he was aborted, not being able to do the task that he/she was chosen to do and the act happened anyway. It reminds me of a song by Michael W Smith "this is your time"..

ok, well thats my two bits..

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[ironmonk]

Christ was in Mary's womb from conception... Life begins at conception, not birth.

Here is an article I wrote a few years ago, with scripture ref.

If someone is not pro-life - they are not real Catholics.

As our Pope said:

EVANGELIUM VITAE (The Gospel of Life)

"28. This situation, with its lights and shadows, ought to make us all fully aware that we are facing an enormous and dramatic clash between good and evil, death and life, the "culture of death" and the "culture of life". We find ourselves not only "faced with" but necessarily "in the midst of" this conflict: we are all involved and we all share in it, with the inescapable responsibility of choosing to be unconditionally pro-life."

The Most Dangerous Place in World is The Womb

Anyone who claims to be Christian and yet supports the murder of an unborn child has much learning to do about God, Jesus, and the Bible. Jesus was in Mary's womb at the time of conception. Abortion is the work of Satan. More have died from abortion than from ALL the wars in the history of mankind. More than the holocaust, the civil war, WWI, WWII, etc....

Some say that the unborn child is "just a piece of tissue". Even if someone does not believe in God at all, and is a devout atheist, can not deny the fact that as soon as the sperm meets the egg - life begins! The ONLY things that are provided by the mother are nourishment, oxygen and shelter! The Baby grows on its own. The simple proof that it IS a separate being is that when they cut the helpless unborn baby into pieces, the mother does not feel it! If this was "part" of her, then surly this act would cause great pain. The baby feels all the pain.

Some say that "I don't believe it's wrong. I've had friends do it, but I wouldn't do it.". Why do you believe it's right? Have you really done any research into it? - True research, not just stopping when you hear what you want to hear. Just because people you know and care for have done it, does not make it alright to do. You wouldn't do it because you know deep down inside, that it is murder.

Some say "It's better to have it legal and safe than the back ally abortions.". So, your saying that it's better for 126,000 innocent babies to die each day than maybe a few hundred people trying to kill an innocent baby. About 1,380,000 baby killings happen each year in America alone. World Wide - 46,000,000 each year. Why not make it legal to kill anyone? Say maybe a relative that becomes handicap and now you have to take care of them, surely if someone is going to be a burden in your life, cost you more money, or it's just not the right time to be around them, it should be alright to kill them?

Some say "I can't afford to have a child.". Then you shouldn't of had sex. You've just priced a human life at about $400. The greed in America has gotten so ridiculous that you pay for the murder of your own child. Click on the above link and you will learn the truth. God Bless Carol.

Some say "If it's wrong God will punish them for their choice." And he will punish you for doing nothing and condoning this action of death. To not do what is right is a sin. Read the first four chapters of Romans in the New Testament.

Some have said to me "You should not judge least, you shall be judged.". And I say to you "YOU SHALL NOT KILL". Making the murder of the unborn illegal is NOT judging. It is protecting those who can not protect themselves! Read Proverbs 31:8.

All abortions are wrong. Less than 1% of abortions happened because of rape or incest. 6% because of potential health problems of the mother or the baby. Over 93% is because of social reasons. The unborn child is innocent, and his or her life has value.

Let's put all of the nonsense behind us. Make the killing of the unborn illegal. If your not ready to have a child, for whatever reason, then DON'T have sex. There is a lie in America, it's called "Safe Sex". The ONLY sex that is safe is between a husband and wife that are loyal to each other. If people did not have pre-marital sex (no same sex marriages), then there would not be sexually transmitted diseases, no AIDS (providing people did not have the homosexual disorder also), and no want to murder your unborn child.

I ask you this: Why is it illegal to kill a child one minute after it is born, but not illegal to kill a child one minute before it is born? What about five minutes before birth? What about one day? They are degrading women so they get rich. Abortion doctors are not doctors, they are the coroners that keep themselves in business by being assassins.

Bible Verses:

Luke 1:26-31

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus .

Luke 1:41-43

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?

Exodus 20:13

"You shall not kill."

Exodus 21:22

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [literally in Hebrew, "so that her child comes out"] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot"

Psalms 51:5

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

James 2:26

Tells us that "the body without the spirit is dead": The soul is the life-principle of the human body. Since from the time of conception the child's body is alive (as shown by the fact it is growing), the child's body must already have its spirit.

Proverbs 31:8-9

Open thy mouth for the dumb, and for the causes of all the children that pass. Open thy mouth, decree that which is just, and do justice to the needy and poor.

Isaiah 49:1

Hear me, O coastlands, listen, O distant peoples. The LORD called me from birth, from my mother's womb he gave me my name.

Isaiah 49:5

For now the LORD has spoken who formed me as his servant from the womb, That Jacob may be brought back to him and Israel gathered to him; And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and my God is now my strength!

Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.

Luke 1:15

for he will be great in the sight of (the) Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother's womb,

Galatians 1:15-16

But when (God), who from my mother's womb had set me apart and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him to the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult flesh and blood

-----------------

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,

ironmonk

[Chastisement]

I don't beleive in middle ground in the abortion debate. There's no grey area, only black and white.

The baby either lives, or dies. No inbetween.

Second, interesting thing about condoms, they are not 99% effective, or whatever that lie is. The sperm is actually smaller then the molecular structure of latex, so, there's always going to be one or two or a couple of thousand that get through. I'll have to find it, but there's a very good scientific artilce what says condoms are only really 30% effective at most. Things like teens using them incorrectly, not ensuring they're on properly when they pull out et cetera.

As for Pro-Choice "catholics", I tell 'em straight, you're either one or the other, you cannot be both.

[BlondewithaBrain]

hey to ALL those who replied:

i don't believe abortion is right..i would never get one nor would i ever tell anyone else to... why am i prochoice then? simply because i don't think the government has the right to impose christian beliefs on those who aren't. i say, if you are catholic, don't get an abortion..but that doesn't mean you can tell the atheist he can't either..