Why I now reject climate politics nearly entirely

[hakutaku]

7 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I said that demons are influencing all 3 [persons, places, and things] specifically because you claimed they aren't. 

It's stupid to ask why I haven't performed an exorcism, because only those with authority (i.e. priests who have canonical jurisdiction) can perform exorcisms (which are not to be confused with prayers of deliverance, that even lay people can say).  I've never claimed to be a priest...it wouldn't even make sense for me to request an exorcism from someone who clearly is even more keenly aware of the demonic activity involved than I am, and who also lack the authority to perform exorcisms on those specific persons, places, or things, to begin with.

 

Oh! So is your claim that priests won't help you or are you just taking a deliberately stupid reading of my post?  Since you are clearly incapable of reading with common sense and ordinary charity I can be far more defensive in my writing if you like.  Since you believe there is in fact demonic influence, why haven't you had priests conduct exorcisms?  Indeed, why haven't your internet exorcists gotten in touch with the people in the right jurisdiction? 

Is there some ecclesiastical turf war going on, like local cops vs the FBI?  "Dang it, the demons ran and hid in Sheriff Bob's county, and he's not cooperated with us ever since that time we reported him for sleeping in his car.  We'll just have to wait until they leave."

Maybe it is the case that the environmentalists in your jurisdiction are alright, its those other ones that are really demonic?

It sounds much more likely that people selling their exorcist merch online have an incentive to say there are demons everywhere, just like how financial advisors predicted 7 out of the last 3 recessions.

7 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Further: I have not called members of the environmentalist movement demons - for you to suggest that, is at the very least, deceitful.

Further: I do believe that demons are leading the current environmentalist movement. 

I think these two sentences are beautifully juxtaposed.  "I haven't yet called any members demons, so let me fix that: the leaders are demons."

Of course I did not say that you called the members demons, I said that it was "almost as if you wanted to."  This was based on your saying that the "entire movement [is] demonic" (presumably including the members) and your allusion to "Get behind me [satan]" with respect to people arguing against you.  Indeed, in light of your most recent post, it appears I was entirely correct about your desire to call (at least some) members of the environmental movement demons.

It is no stretch of the imagination to say that this is your rhetorical strategy: claim the entire movement is demonic so that you can say "get behind me demon" any time you're at a rhetorical disadvantage.  It is a very convenient way to avoid actually arguing the facts of the matter, and has been employed many times in history (e.g. McCarthyism, literal witch hunts, etc).

Now, in your post you retreat to a bizarre position:

25 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

However, you can't exorcise a generalization.  I never said Bobby Sue was possessed or being otherwise influenced by demons.  The movement as a whole is, and almost certainly there are individuals within that movement that are actually, physically possessed, but since we're talking about a movement, an idea, then it's not something that can be exorcised.

Granting for a second the possibility of possessing a generalization: perhaps you missed the part where exorcisms can be used to ward off demons?  So if indeed the "generalization" is demonic, you can use exorcisms to keep it from influencing people or remove its influence from people, in any jurisdiction.

But back in the real world: a "generalization" is not something that can be exorcised because its not something that can be possessed in the first place.  If the demons are influencing the movement, it is only by influencing the movement's persons, places, or things. 

56 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

Lastly: I didn't think this up on my own.  This is coming from much reading and listening to talks online by a great number of people, including multiple exorcists themselves.

Indeed, I challenge you to produce your anonymous internet exorcists who assert that the abstract generalization "the environmentalist movement" can be possessed.

[fides' Jack]

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Indeed, I challenge you to produce your anonymous internet exorcists who assert that the abstract generalization "the environmentalist movement" can be possessed.

I never said the environmentalist movement is possessed...

??...

...???

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

I can be far more defensive in my writing if you like.

I don't care one way or the other.

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Of course I did not say that you called the members demons, I said that it was "almost as if you wanted to."

I looked at your post again.  I took that statement as a "you want to", not as a "almost as if you want to".  I'll admit to that error.

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Granting for a second the possibility of possessing a generalization: perhaps you missed the part where exorcisms can be used to ward off demons?

If there's a specific place, then yes, I will grant that's a possibility.  But an idea is not a person, place, or thing.

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

So if indeed the "generalization" is demonic, you can use exorcisms to keep it from influencing people or remove its influence from people, in any jurisdiction.

No, and no.  A general thing can indeed be demonic or influenced by demons.  An idea, for example.  But the statement that you can use exorcisms on an idea is absurd.

My statement regarding jurisdiction has to do with legitimate Church authority.  Not any priest or exorcist can exorcise any person, place, or thing.  It requires the approval of not only the local bishop, but the person who is to be exorcised, or the owner of the property to be exorcised.  In this case there is none.

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

But back in the real world: a "generalization" is not something that can be exorcised because its not something that can be possessed in the first place.

Two things here: I'm not the one calling for an exorcism.  Also, I never said the movement was possessed.  You seem to think demonic means possessed.  It does not.

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

It is no stretch of the imagination to say that this is your rhetorical strategy: claim the entire movement is demonic so that you can say "get behind me demon" any time you're at a rhetorical disadvantage.

Be at an advantage if you like.  I don't really care.  But you'll note I called it demonic before you tried to argue this point about exorcisms with me.  Indeed that's what started this argument.

6 hours ago, hakutaku said:

If the demons are influencing the movement, it is only by influencing the movement's persons, places, or things. 

Logically, I agree with this statement.  However, I can't point to any specific person, place or thing that is being influenced.  I can only say that there is some person, place or thing being influenced.  If you know who it is, let me know and I'll pass that information along.

Also, there are two very distinct things here, both of which I believe are true.  The movement itself is demonic, AND the idea behind the movement is demonic.

[hakutaku]

3 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I never said the environmentalist movement is possessed...  You seem to think demonic means possessed.  It does not.

I mean, the church teaches that even in cases of possession a demon cannot take away someones free will, so in my mind there isn't a categorical distinction between possession and influence, just a difference in the degree of influence.

On the other hand, you seem to think demonic means "anything not explicitly about God."   

I see that your assertion here:

11 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I never said Bobby Sue was possessed or being otherwise influenced by demons.  The movement as a whole is, and...

could be read as "I never said Bobby Sue was (possessed or influenced by demons).  The movement as a whole is (possessed or influenced by demons)"

Whereas I read it as "(I never said Bobby Sue was possessed) [or even influenced!].  The movement as a whole is (possessed)"

3 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

However, I can't point to any specific person, place or thing that is being influenced.  I can only say that there is some person, place or thing being influenced. 

The real reason no one is calling for exorcisms of people places or things in the environmental movement is that no one, not you or your internet exorcists, really believes it is demonic.  If you really thought the people around you were in danger of being influenced by demonic ideas and movements, you would be asking for permission to perform exorcisms at the very least as a preventative measure.  No one has even done this bare minimum first step, despite your claims of literal demons leading the environmental movement. 

Its the same strategy employed back in 1919; when people didn't like black folks having jobs they asserted that the black community's discontent was due to malevolent communist propagandists.  Of course they couldn't point to any actual malevolent propagandists, they just believed the black communities concerns were illegitimate and needed a boogeyman to justify their beliefs.

 

[fides' Jack]

10 hours ago, hakutaku said:

On the other hand, you seem to think demonic means "anything not explicitly about God."   

Quite the contrary.  I believe that the environmentalist movement is explicitly about worship of satan and his minions.  It's quite clearly demonic.  Please don't tell me what I believe.

 

...  However, that being said, I'm done trying to argue with an atheist who clearly doesn't understand Church teaching on the matter.  There is a distinct, categorical different between all three forms of diabolic manipulation, which are oppression, obsession, and possession (we've been calling both of the former "influence", but there are multiple types of influence).  

But you win: I concede that I was wrong.  I do believe that the movement itself is demonic, but the reason why I haven't done anything about it is because I'm a bad Catholic.  I don't mean that sarcastically or anything like that, I mean it truly.  I'm a huge sinner, and I have a lot of my own sins and issues that I'm trying to overcome, and maybe it would behoove me to work that out before I start casting stones online.

I only offer 1 warning to any potential readers of this: don't fall into the evil of environmentalism.  Like so many other movements right now, it will only lead you away from God.  And I'm quite sure that environmentalism is going to be coming back with a much greater intensity and ferocity in the next few years, so this is important.

With that, you can have the last word.  I'm done arguing about it.

[hakutaku]

2 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

However, that being said, I'm done trying to argue with an atheist who clearly doesn't understand Church teaching on the matter.  There is a distinct, categorical different between all three forms of diabolic manipulation, which are oppression, obsession, and possession (we've been calling both of the former "influence", but there are multiple types of influence).  

There sure are, but none of those distinctions matter for our purposes.  All of them are addressed by exorcism, and none of them assert demons directly influence abstract generalizations.

 

[ArciMoto]

On 3/31/2021 at 12:40 PM, fides' Jack said:

We've made a false god out of "mother earth".  

We should take care of our souls before we focus on taking care of nature.  Of course the two are not mutually exclusive, but it does mean that our focus should not be on the environment.

[ArciMoto]

On 9/13/2019 at 2:33 PM, dominicansoul said:

the world is supposed to end, that's what the Book of Revelation is all about...

 

On 9/27/2019 at 12:41 PM, fides' Jack said:

Give me any evidence at all that 1) human behavior is having an effect on climate (which I will grant you for the sake of argument without any other qualifications - even though there is no direct evidence, so you can't), and 2) that the effect is bad, let alone detrimental.

FWIW in a recent news article it was noted CO2 levels were 419 PPM and the last line read,...

"the longer we wait, the harder it gets"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/06/07/atmospheric-carbon-dioxide-hits-record-levels/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F334f012%2F60be49aa9d2fdae302736423%2F596e8f28ae7e8a614b2f3264%2F13%2F72%2F60be49aa9d2fdae302736423

thought I'd point this out because sadly people don't have the brains (and "cajones") to consider the lessons of "error chain" analysis (like in aviation accident investigations)

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/cfis/break-the-error-chain/

simple truth is without a dramatic change in outlook by everyone including those who place a great importance in faith, as I see things climate change is the great fiddler test (of fermi's paradox) that humanity is going to have difficulty passing

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/11/the-great-fiddler-a-possible-solution-to-the-fermi-paradox

speaking of "the longer we wait, the harder it gets" what is going to make addressing climate change almost impossible for civilization to address is various unsustainable debt obligations (which is going to cause great havoc in the economic realm),... take for example what is sadly happening in my home town

http://www.SanDiegoDebtBomb.com

[fides' Jack]

We've made a false god out of mother earth.  And we will pay the price.

[ArciMoto]

3 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

We've made a false god out of mother earth.  And we will pay the price.

huh,... ever ponder why it's difficult/impossible for people to deal w/ the topic of climate change?!

thought I'd point this out issues w/ "basic human nature" because perhaps you might want to re-consider your refrain about "mother earth being a false god" which perhaps an example of psychology (discussed in a podcast),... when in fact hard science has shown mankind is indeed destroying "creation"

https://podcasts.podinstall.com/npr-hidden-brain/202107261954-losing-alaska.html

@15m24s

...You spend some time talking with Daniel Kahneman the famous psychologist who won the Nobel Prize in economics and he actually presented a very pessimistic view that we would actually [NOT] come to terms with the threat of climate change

He said to me that we are as humans, are very poor dealing with issues in the future,... we tend to be very focused on the short term,... we tend to "discount" would be the economic term,... to reduce the value of things happening in the future the further away they are. 

He says we are very cost adverse,... that is to say when there are rewards we respond strongly BUT when there's a cost we prefer to push it away,... just as you know when I'm by myself which I leave until the very last minute (like in my tax return, I mean you just don't want to deal with these things). 

And he says we're reluctant to deal with uncertainty. 

If things are uncertain OR we perceive them to be,... people say well come back and tell me when we're certain. 

What he said to me was in his view the climate change is the worst possible combination because it's not only uncertain BUT it's also in the future AND involves costs.

@21m36s

...So George there obviously is one domain in life where you can see people constantly placing the sacred values above their selfish self interest,.... you know I'm thinking here about the many many religions we have in the world that get people to do all kinds of things that an economist would say is not in that rational self interest.

People give up food people give up water people have you know suffer enormous personal privations people sometimes choose chastity for life I mean huge costs that people are willing to bear and they're not doing it because someone says at the end of the year are I'm going to give you an extra 200 bucks in your paycheck or an extra $2000 in your paycheck they're doing it because they believe these are sacred values that are not negotiable.

 

 

PS Netflix has an interesting film that tries to show ways to correct various problems caused by mankind (burning fossil fuel)

https://about.netflix.com/en/news/breaking-boundaries-the-science-of-our-planet

PPS mankind will pay the price if the issue of man made climate change is ignored

[fides' Jack]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:52 PM, ArciMoto said:

when in fact hard science has shown mankind is indeed destroying "creation"

And hard science has also shown the opposite.  

We've made a false god of mother earth, and we will pay the price, soon.

On 8/6/2021 at 5:52 PM, ArciMoto said:

PS Netflix has an interesting film that tries to show ways to correct various problems caused by mankind (burning fossil fuel)

https://about.netflix.com/en/news/breaking-boundaries-the-science-of-our-planet

Netflix?  Seriously?  We are truly a very worldly people, and we worship the earth and we worship ourselves and our technology.

Documentaries will not sway me.  The lying left now controls ALL the major media sources, ALL of the education system, ALL of the branches of the US government, and their lies have infected all governments down to city councils and even HOAs.  

Just so you're aware, the climate, and other natural sources, such as the sun, will have nothing to do with the event that's coming.  But that's the lie they will sell many people on.  Don't believe it.  It's not going to happen tomorrow, and maybe not even next year, but it's coming nonetheless.  This event will be of supernatural origin.  You will believe it while it's happening, but soon after you'll have to decide which side you stand on.  Choose God.  

[cruciatacara]

9 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

And hard science has also shown the opposite.  

We've made a false god of mother earth, and we will pay the price, soon.

Netflix?  Seriously?  We are truly a very worldly people, and we worship the earth and we worship ourselves and our technology.

Documentaries will not sway me.  The lying left now controls ALL the major media sources, ALL of the education system, ALL of the branches of the US government, and their lies have infected all governments down to city councils and even HOAs.  

Just so you're aware, the climate, and other natural sources, such as the sun, will have nothing to do with the event that's coming.  But that's the lie they will sell many people on.  Don't believe it.  It's not going to happen tomorrow, and maybe not even next year, but it's coming nonetheless.  This event will be of supernatural origin.  You will believe it while it's happening, but soon after you'll have to decide which side you stand on.  Choose God.  

Isn't there some heresy that divides everything into the 'good' spiritual and the 'evil earthly things? When God finished creating everything He saw that is was good. I don't 'worship' the earth or nature or anything that is created, but I certainly love everything that God has created, simply because He has created it. And I acknowledge my stewardship of the earth and all its creatures because I am a human, the highest form of life, with a responsibility that God placed upon us all to care for the lesser forms of life.

Now, that is not to say that there aren't things I dislike, like bugs and snakes and creepy crawlies that scare me, but I acknowledge they are creations and therefore have purpose. It just seems a little simplistic to try to disconnect our concern for the planet we live on and all the life that God created, from our spiritual purpose. We are meant to be human beings living in this world, in the hope that when we die, we will be united with our Lord and God. Seeing everything as divided just seems so counter-intuitive to loving and serving a just and compassionate God who placed us here among His creation.

[ArciMoto]

11 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Just so you're aware, the climate, and other natural sources, such as the sun, will have nothing to do with the event that's coming.  But that's the lie they will sell many people on.  Don't believe it.  It's not going to happen tomorrow, and maybe not even next year, but it's coming nonetheless.  This event will be of supernatural origin.  You will believe it while it's happening, but soon after you'll have to decide which side you stand on.  Choose God.  

 

2 hours ago, cruciatacara said:

I acknowledge my stewardship of the earth and all its creatures because I am a human, the highest form of life, with a responsibility that God placed upon us all to care for the lesser forms of life

 

[hakutaku]

Ars just did a good article on all the predictions made by climate change deniers, and how they all turned out to be wrong.

 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/a-look-back-at-very-bad-predictions-of-global-cooling/

[ArciMoto]

22 hours ago, hakutaku said:

Ars just did a good article on all the predictions made by climate change deniers, and how they all turned out to be wrong.

 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/a-look-back-at-very-bad-predictions-of-global-cooling/

huh,... the educated climate deniers in the "ars" article are no talent clowns that don't seem to have any inkling of the basic science

as I see things, to grasp the basic science of climate change requires first of all a basic understanding of how orbital dynamics changes (over geological time)

IOW when less sunlight hits the earth, the atmosphere cools down AND when the time frame of the earth receiving less sunlight is ten of thousand of years,... the planet goes through an extended winter period AKA an "ice age"

as a knucklehead studying physics (decades ago) this simple explanation makes perfect sense,... and FWIW happened (long ago) to read a 1976 paper on the topic 

perhaps it was my dumb luck that I was walked through the basic math/science of a three body system/chaos theory and how it relates to the 1976 paper

have a look at the PDF of the 1976 article it's pretty straight forward (as least it is to me)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EfozEScJ9h_m1TzvvKj2FkV-wRY_cL0x/view

the second bit of key information the climate science "geniuses" all seem to be missing is an understanding of the basic chemical/physical properties of various greenhouse gases, then there is the keeling curve AND how its just an extension of the chemical combustion process on a "yuge" scale

sigh,...

out of curiosity just googled "climate deniers" and found an OT reference with top 10 list of morons that suffer from verbal diarrhea when commenting on the topic of "climate science" (perhaps they have a preexisting  medical condition,... like diarrhea for brains)

https://www.beforetheflood.com/explore/the-deniers/top-10-climate-deniers/

guess its my love of the old calvin and hobbs comics humor, but really wish there was a grass roots social movement with a religious understand, that would promise to cancel the verbal diarrhea of non sensical climate science,...

IOW imagine all the members of an organization like promise keepers

https://promisekeepers.org/promise-keepers/about-us/

sending a "Calvin" inspired post card (with a simple message AND has space where a person can sign their name) to climate science "geniuses" anytime they misspoke on the issue
 

[fides' Jack]

I've never known a climate change denier.  I've never heard of anyone actually denying climate change.  

22 hours ago, ArciMoto said:

 

 

By their fruits you will know them.

Climate change [pseudo-]science is currently driven by the same people who promote abortion, BLM, and a number of other demonic organizations.