Evangelising On LDS Forum

[Seven77]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:39 PM, Jane_Doe2 said:

That + one will + one mercy + one justice + one goodness + one all knowing + one all powerful, etc.  

Yeah, that's the thing I'm trying to understand. We believe that as well, that is, the belief that the Father shares each of these one same  attributes with the  Son and the Holy Spirit. But what I don't understand is how, if you believe that God is One in Three Persons who share one Divine Will, one Beneficence, one  Omnipotence, one  Power of  All Knowing and etc., how is it that you do not believe that they share One Substance?

Edited August 17, 2019 by Seven77

[Jane_Doe2]

18 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

Yeah, that's the thing I'm trying to understand. We believe that as well, that is, the belief that the Father shares each of these one same  attributes with the  Son and the Holy Spirit. But what I don't understand is how, if you believe that God is One in Three Persons who share one Divine Will, one Beneficence, one  Omnipotence, one  Power of  All Knowing and etc., how is it that you do not believe that they share One Substance?

Honestly, there's nothing in scripture about Substance at all.  It's not even really a concept for LDS Christians.

Aside: Catholic's citing Holy Tradition here is actually a decent leg to stand on.  Versus sola-scriptura Protestants that... they really don't any leg to stand on here.   

[Seven77]

57 minutes ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

Honestly, there's nothing in scripture about Substance at all.  It's not even really a concept for LDS Christians.

Aside: Catholic's citing Holy Tradition here is actually a decent leg to stand on.  Versus sola-scriptura Protestants that... they really don't any leg to stand on here.   

Yes, it's true that there is nothing explicitly  stated about the  this belief  having to do with the DivineNature   of God. But then, as you may have hinted, not everything necessary for Salvation is in Scripture by itself. Now, my confusion is that sharing these attributes implies that God has One Divine Nature, that is, One Substance: Father has same nature as  Son and Spirit have..  But you  seem to be saying that you don't believe that they share Oneness this way. Ironically, you are confessing That they do, By the way you put your belief, but you don't seem to think so.

I   would like to ask you,  do you believe that the Father is and always was And Will Be God? Do you believe that the Son  Is and Always Was, and Will Be God, Do You Believe That The Holy Spirit Is and Always Was and Will Be God?

(Sorry for the Sloppy Typing, Using Voice Dictation)

Edited August 17, 2019 by Seven77

[Jane_Doe2]

13 hours ago, Seven77 said:

Yes, it's true that there is nothing explicitly  stated about the  this belief  having to do with the DivineNature   of God. But then, as you may have hinted, not everything necessary for Salvation is in Scripture by itself. Now, my confusion is that sharing these attributes implies that God has One Divine Nature, that is, One Substance: Father has same nature as  Son and Spirit have..  But you  seem to be saying that you don't believe that they share Oneness this way. Ironically, you are confessing That they do, By the way you put your belief, but you don't seem to think so.

This hits on several different points, so I'm going to break my response up--

-- Rejection of sola scriptura: like Catholic Christians, LDS Christians completely reject sola scriptura.  Scripture shouldn't be treated like the last letter from a dead man.  Rather, God lives and still speaks, and that's important.  As is priesthood authority.  Obviously LDS Christians and Catholic Christians disagree on which lines of authority/tradition are authoritative, but there both strongly acknowledge the need for it.

-- "Necessary for salvation": I don't believe that a man is saved by his ability to pass a theology test.  Theology is important, yes, but it's not what saves us.  Heck, if I thought that different understanding of the nature of God was enough to beaver dam other folks, I couldn't call Catholic Christians.  Let alone the many modalist Christian friends I have.  And don't even get me started on the Calvinists which are way out there

-- Differences between LDS Christian and Athanasian Christians on the nature of God: let me ask you a question to highlight the difference here: what makes God God?  Is it His state of being (goodness, mercy, justice, will, etc)-- and only that?   Or is an additional prerequisite of it being the literal substance of being (ousia)? 

 

13 hours ago, Seven77 said:

I   would like to ask you,  do you believe that the Father is and always was And Will Be God? Do you believe that the Son  Is and Always Was, and Will Be God, Do You Believe That The Holy Spirit Is and Always Was and Will Be God?

The Son: no duh.

The Spirit: no duh.

The Father: I'm just going to address this myth head on: there's no LDS Christian definitive doctrine that deals with the Father's past.  There's some speculation, but nothing definitive at all, and you'll find LDS Christians with a wide variety of views on it, all sitting at the same pew.  None of those views are what a Athanasian Christian think when they hear this, because LDS Christians aren't Athanasian Christians (see the state of being versus substance discussion above for starters).  Such speculations are viewed as completely no important for discipleship in Christ.  

[Lilllabettt]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

This hits on several different points, so I'm going to break my response up--

-- Rejection of sola scriptura: like Catholic Christians, LDS Christians completely reject sola scriptura.  Scripture shouldn't be treated like the last letter from a dead man.  Rather, God lives and still speaks, and that's important.  As is priesthood authority.  Obviously LDS Christians and Catholic Christians disagree on which lines of authority/tradition are authoritative, but there both strongly acknowledge the need for it.

-- "Necessary for salvation": I don't believe that a man is saved by his ability to pass a theology test.  Theology is important, yes, but it's not what saves us.  Heck, if I thought that different understanding of the nature of God was enough to beaver dam other folks, I couldn't call Catholic Christians.  Let alone the many modalist Christian friends I have.  And don't even get me started on the Calvinists which are way out there

-- Differences between LDS Christian and Athanasian Christians on the nature of God: let me ask you a question to highlight the difference here: what makes God God?  Is it His state of being (goodness, mercy, justice, will, etc)-- and only that?   Or is an additional prerequisite of it being the literal substance of being (ousia)? 

 

The Son: no duh.

The Spirit: no duh.

The Father: I'm just going to address this myth head on: there's no LDS Christian definitive doctrine that deals with the Father's past.  There's some speculation, but nothing definitive at all, and you'll find LDS Christians with a wide variety of views on it, all sitting at the same pew.  None of those views are what a Athanasian Christian think when they hear this, because LDS Christians aren't Athanasian Christians (see the state of being versus substance discussion above for starters).  Such speculations are viewed as completely no important for discipleship in Christ.  

Wait... how can the Father have a past? He is eternal and created everything including time?

What is the speculation? 

[Jane_Doe2]

29 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Wait... how can the Father have a past? He is eternal and created everything including time?

LDS Christians believe in creation differently than Athanasian Christians.  

[Lilllabettt]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

LDS Christians believe in creation differently than Athanasian Christians.  

How so?

He didn't create time? Who made it?

[Jane_Doe2]

4 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

How so?

He didn't create time? Who made it?

For an LDS Christian (who's not extensively studied other faiths like I have), that question doesn't make sense.  It's met with a "huh?".  LDS Christians don't have such a concept, or "material vs immaterial" or a lot of the metaphysical aspects of Creedal beliefs.  These just aren't concepts at all.    

Edited August 17, 2019 by Jane_Doe2

[Lilllabettt]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

For an LDS Christian (who's not extensively studied other faiths like I have), that question doesn't make sense.  It's met with a "huh?".  LDS Christians don't have such a concept, or "material vs immaterial" or a lot of the metaphysical aspects of Creedal beliefs.  These just aren't concepts at all.    

So you don't believe in time?

You know I know, I could just google. But I would prefer to learn from Mormons, rather than try to figure out if the non-Mormons are prejudiced or badly informed.  

Is it a secret belief, like you're not allowed to talk about it with nonbelievers? 

[Jane_Doe2]

1 hour ago, Lilllabettt said:

So you don't believe in time?

You know I know, I could just google. But I would prefer to learn from Mormons, rather than try to figure out if the non-Mormons are prejudiced or badly informed.  

Is it a secret belief, like you're not allowed to talk about it with nonbelievers? 

It is always best to get things from primary sources (hence my own learning from Catholicism from Catholics).  And no, there's nothing remotely secret here.

Catholic views of philosophical metaphysics were heavily codified by Church Fathers that came after Biblical times.  That's when you get subjects like "beyond time", "one through a shared ousia","material versus immaterial", "creation ex nihilio", "classes of beings", "immovable mover" being thoroughly discussed, debated, and transcribed.  

LDS Christians do not accept these Church Father as being authoritative.  The above subject matters are simply not a part of of LDS Christian theology.  

I understand what you mean by "outside of time" because I have thoroughly studied Catholicism.  A LDS Christian that doesn't have that background will answer something like "uhhh... what are you talking about?  You do mean "years" like the number of times Earth rotates the Sun, or the Earth spins around?  Well, God did create the Sun and Earth.   Or wait-- is this a trick question Theory of Relativity thing?  Well, if you go fast enough, relative time does slow down <and then goes into little science blurb>".

Does that make sense?  

Sorry if I'm stumbling with words here.   It is surprisingly difficult to the convey nonexistance of a branch of philosophy.  But LDS Christians really just don't have those metaphysics as part of their theology / thought process.  

[Lilllabettt]

On 8/17/2019 at 9:26 PM, Jane_Doe2 said:

It is always best to get things from primary sources (hence my own learning from Catholicism from Catholics).  And no, there's nothing remotely secret here.

Catholic views of philosophical metaphysics were heavily codified by Church Fathers that came after Biblical times.  That's when you get subjects like "beyond time", "one through a shared ousia","material versus immaterial", "creation ex nihilio", "classes of beings", "immovable mover" being thoroughly discussed, debated, and transcribed.  

LDS Christians do not accept these Church Father as being authoritative.  The above subject matters are simply not a part of of LDS Christian theology.  

I understand what you mean by "outside of time" because I have thoroughly studied Catholicism.  A LDS Christian that doesn't have that background will answer something like "uhhh... what are you talking about?  You do mean "years" like the number of times Earth rotates the Sun, or the Earth spins around?  Well, God did create the Sun and Earth.   Or wait-- is this a trick question Theory of Relativity thing?  Well, if you go fast enough, relative time does slow down <and then goes into little science blurb>".

Does that make sense?  

Sorry if I'm stumbling with words here.   It is surprisingly difficult to the convey nonexistance of a branch of philosophy.  But LDS Christians really just don't have those metaphysics as part of their theology / thought process.  

Ok, but I'm really asking you to explain how God the Father could have a past, and what is the speculation about His past? 

This says God is outside time, are they mistaken? (I did google because I seem not to be asking my question the right way to acquire the information I seek). http://www.ldsliving.com/How-Does-God-s-Time-Really-Work/s/80028

 

[Jane_Doe2]

26 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Ok, but I'm really asking you to explain how God the Father could have a past, and what is the speculation about His past? 

This says God is outside time, are they mistaken? (I did google because I seem not to be asking my question the right way to acquire the information I seek). http://www.ldsliving.com/How-Does-God-s-Time-Really-Work/s/80028

 

This article is talking about God's ability to know all things and be omnipresent.  Not a time "outside of time" like a creatieo ex nihilio person believes-- LDS Christians don't believe in  creatieo ex nihilio.  There's no concept of "a time before time".

As the the speculation themselves (speaking super-summed-up style here), the most common speculation for those folks* that want to speculate on this is that the Father might have lived a mortal life like Christ, before the creation of this Earth.  *Elaborating on who "those folks" are: this type of speculation isn't something that LDS Christians spend time over the pulpit discussing.     We just don't having anything to solid to discuss, and you'll literally have folks with a wide variety of opinions on it all in the same congregation (including the "what are you even talking about?" option).  All that being said, this is a hugely popular misunderstanding non-LDS folks have about LDS beliefs (a misconception popularized by axe-grinders, because... well, axe-grinders).  

On the are non-over-the-pulpilt time time these speculation does come up, the focus isn't on the Father's past but on the future: Christ's ability to have transform His disciple in a completely Perfect person like unto Himself and a joint-heir with Him.   That transformation potential is a actually an important part of LDS theology.   

[Lilllabettt]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe2 said:

This article is talking about God's ability to know all things and be omnipresent.  Not a time "outside of time" like a creatieo ex nihilio person believes-- LDS Christians don't believe in  creatieo ex nihilio.  There's no concept of "a time before time".

As the the speculation themselves (speaking super-summed-up style here), the most common speculation for those folks* that want to speculate on this is that the Father might have lived a mortal life like Christ, before the creation of this Earth.  *Elaborating on who "those folks" are: this type of speculation isn't something that LDS Christians spend time over the pulpit discussing.     We just don't having anything to solid to discuss, and you'll literally have folks with a wide variety of opinions on it all in the same congregation (including the "what are you even talking about?" option).  All that being said, this is a hugely popular misunderstanding non-LDS folks have about LDS beliefs (a misconception popularized by axe-grinders, because... well, axe-grinders).  

On the are non-over-the-pulpilt time time these speculation does come up, the focus isn't on the Father's past but on the future: Christ's ability to have transform His disciple in a completely Perfect person like unto Himself and a joint-heir with Him.   That transformation potential is a actually an important part of LDS theology.   

That is pretty wild though. I understand you're saying there are differences of opinion among LDSers but among Catholics there is no difference of opinion... or at least, if there were, that idea would be in the "you're nuts" territory (to be clear, nuts in the Catholic context, not lds. It's not nuts territory in lds, which is why I find it wild. Just wanting to make clear I'm not trying to insult, but say how different it is.)

So ... if the Father was mortal once, who created him? A different god? Did he live on another planet? How did he become a god? Are there other gods for other planets? 

Is this the meaning of the LDS belief that the Father Son and spirit are different beings? They are different gods, who were mortal once? 

And this is the mission of Jesus - show us mortals how to also become gods ... with our own planet to be god over? (This is something I've heard about LDS before,  that it is acceptable to believe we will one day become gods with our own planets.)

This rings bells as far as the eastern Catholic belief in divinization aka theosis.  But, in that process the Christian does not actually become a god,  rather, just as the one God became man in all ways but sin, man will become God in all ways except the divine essence or substance. Similar but not the same. 

[Seven77]

On 8/17/2019 at 1:45 PM, Lilllabettt said:

Wait... how can the Father have a past?

What is the speculation? 

 This is what I would like to know, Jane. I  have read through your responses but I  do not seem to see a clear-cut answer to these questions. Specifically, you mentioned "the Father's past." What does this mean? Do you believe that the Father had a past? Do some Mormons believe that the Father had  some sort of  Past? Are Mormons  free to speculate whether or not the Father had  a past life?   By Speaking Of Some Sort of Past pertaining to the Father, Are You Implying That the Father had an origin?

If the Father had a past, did the Son  Ever have a past That Was Different Andd Separate ?

[Jane_Doe2]

3 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

 This is what I would like to know, Jane. I  have read through your responses but I  do not seem to see a clear-cut answer to these questions. Specifically, you mentioned "the Father's past." What does this mean? Do you believe that the Father had a past? Do some Mormons believe that the Father had  some sort of  Past? Are Mormons  free to speculate whether or not the Father had  a past life?   By Speaking Of Some Sort of Past pertaining to the Father, Are You Implying That the Father had an origin?

If the Father had a past, did the Son  Ever have a past That Was Different Andd Separate ?

(I'm just trying to be pithy for this response, let me know if you want any elaboration)

 

LDS Christians very openly embrace the fact that we don't know everything-- to quote the Articles of Faith: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." (emphasis mine, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng).  

So there are unknowns.  Any possible past of the Father's would be in that category.  And there are folks that have a variety of speculative views on it-- speculations that aren't remotely central to the Gospel and we're not going to waste pulpit time over.

None of these involve an "origin" the way you're thinking of it.  Remember, the Father, like the Son, is eternal.  The Son having a history before today (life before being born of Mary, living a mortal life, accesending, etc) doesn't in anyway change His divinity.