Preservation Of The Saints

[j_calvin]

PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS

John 10:27-29:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hands."
Unfortunately, the theology of many modern Christians includes a belief that man is at least as powerful - if not more so - as God. I can picture all the Arminians readers of this essay jumping up and down in protest at this statement, so let me expound a little more. The last portion of the passage above says that the Father is greater and more powerful than all. The Arminian will at least grant this. But does the Arminian who believes that Christ can lose a Christian really believe that God is powerful enough even to keep His own from tripping? Once Christ has called someone to be His own, can He lose that person? The Biblical answer is "no!" John 3:16, probably the most well-known passage in the Bible says that those who believe in Christ will not perish. Christ will never allow one of His sheep to stay lost.

But what about those who "back-slide?" asks the Arminian. Peter "back-slid" after Christ's betrayal by Judas. He denied Christ three times and yet Christ later rescued him from sin and set him up as the rock upon which the church would be built. If someone *truly* has been regenerated and then fallen away, he will eventually be rescued by Christ. In this way, we must also remember that Judas, one of the original twelve disciples, fell away and was not rescued because he was never truly regenerated.

Once again, we come back to the ultimate difference between Calvinism and Arminianism; the first system of belief says that God is in complete control and has sovereign authority, the latter system says that God is sort-of in control and that man is a co-regent with God in ruling the world. Arminians believe that even after being regenerated man is still his own boss and that man will do what he wants when he wants to do it. This position cannot be defended exegetically. Once someone has been freed from sin he is a slave to God (Romans 6:22). And God will not allow his slave to run away! "No one can snatch them out of My hand." A good analogy would be a man and an elephant having a tug-o-war match - the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Man may try to rebel against God, but in the end God will triumph.

[Chrysologus]

John 10:27-29 are only three verses of the Bible. I'll admit that, on the surface at least, they seem to present a strong case for the pee at the end of the tulip. But other verses indicate that believers can fall away into mortal sin. Among them are:

Rom 11:20-22
1 Cor 9:27
1 Cor 10:12
Phil 2:12
Rev 3:11

The problem with interpreting the Bible for ourselves and ignoring the solemn pronouncements of the Church Jesus established, as John Calvin did, is that it leads to endless theologies which only serve to divide Christians.

The Council of Trent tells us that people have the free will to either accept of reject God's grace. God didn't make us to be robots.

[Chrysologus]

Also, if you're looking for a Catholic interpretation of the verses you quoted, I believe that Jesus was referring to the supernatural and infallible sense of the faithful. The Church ("my sheep"), [i]as a whole[/i], can never fall away from Jesus ("snatched from my hand"). So, in fact, rather than supporting Calvinism, these verses affirm that the Reformation was unnecessary, as the Catholic Church, Jesus' flock, is incapable of apostasy. I hope you'll see that this corporate understanding of these words of our Lord fit perfectly with the other verses I provided, and do not require any fudging, as Calvinism does in order to make it mesh.

[P3chrmd]

[quote]The problem with interpreting the Bible for ourselves and ignoring the solemn pronouncements of the Church Jesus established, as John Calvin did, is that it leads to endless theologies which only serve to divide Christians.

The Council of Trent tells us that people have the free will to either accept of reject God's grace. God didn't make us to be robots. [/quote]


HOME RUN! You rock dude!

[Guest JeffCR07]

Moreover, I must point out a couple marked flaws in the logic of your argument.

First, you are ignoring the scriptural verses that say, relatively explicitly, that there ARE such things as mortal sins. Chrysologus has listed a few of them. We both agree that the Bible cannot contradict itself, and, as such, either the interpretation of John that you provide, or the Church's interpretation of all of those passages, are wrong.

The more marked fallacy in your argument, however, comes when you say the following:

[quote] In this way, we must also remember that Judas, one of the original twelve disciples, fell away and was not rescued because he was never truly regenerated.[/quote]

If you read the gospel accounts of the selection of the twelve, it is perfectly clear that they are selected on account of their faith, not their lack thereof. Moreover, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything that would support the notion that Judas "never" believed. This is, in fact, an idea that exists solely as a result of Protestants' (including Calvin's) theology. It was never espoused by the Church or the early Church Fathers, let alone the Apostles and disciples themselves.

It is a much more viable interpretation (as Chrysologus stated) to understand that "my sheep" is a reference to the Church as a whole, particularly in light of the fact that it can also be understood to mean "my flock." In this way, this passage, as well as the passage in which Christ assures Peter that "the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (the Church)" reaffirm faith in the Catholic Church, the One True Church, that was established by Christ.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='j_calvin' date='Jun 29 2004, 07:08 PM'] Once Christ has called someone to be His own, can He lose that person? The Biblical answer is "no!" John 3:16, probably the most well-known passage in the Bible says that those who believe in Christ will not perish. Christ will never allow one of His sheep to stay lost. [/quote]
i would like to comment on this verse:

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

our interpretation of this verse is contingent upon our definition of the word "believe." calvinists and other non-catholics take this to mean a one-time profession of faith, or an intellectual assent. however, the verses from the bible that present mortal sin and people who were once saved falling away would appear to contradict this verse.

however, a proper understanding of the word "believe" reconciles this verse w/ those that seem contradictory as well as w/ catholic theology. to believe is not to merely give intellectual assent. to believe is to live your faith. to believe in Christ is to likewise live as Christ lived and wished all of us to live. to believe in Christ is to uphold his commandments and to live the beautitudes. therefore, those who believe in him will not parish b/c they will persevere in these elements of faith and belief. salvation requires perseverence in Christ. this is what it means to believe in him.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Guest JeffCR07]

good job phat!

[Dave]

About John 10:27-29, the verbs use the type of present tense that refers to an ongoing condition. So what it literally means is, "'My sheep keep on hearing my voice, and I keep on knowing them, and they keep on following me: and I "keep on giving" them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

Thus you have to keep on hearing Jesus' voice and following Him so that Jesus will keep on givng you eternal life.

Also, regarding the idea that no one can snatch them out of His hand, it doesn't preclude the possibility of choosing to leave Jesus' hand of your own free will.