j_calvin Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Jun 29 2004, 07:32 PM'] Thanks, but I don't deserve the credit. The credit belongs to the guy who did that article. I just happened to provide the article. [/quote] That's cool, I do like the history of the article. Peace, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXTRECCL.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXTRECCL.HTM[/url] (The article is this link is quite long, if you don't want to read the whole article scroll down to the section titled "Epithets On Boston Common", look for the sub-section "DUELING PONTIFFS?" and read the several paragraphs following that heading.) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT[/url] (I find this article particularly good) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MEMBCHR.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MEMBCHR.TXT[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_calvin Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jun 29 2004, 08:05 PM'] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXTRECCL.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/EXTRECCL.HTM[/url] (The article is this link is quite long, if you don't want to read the whole article scroll down to the section titled "Epithets On Boston Common", look for the sub-section "DUELING PONTIFFS?" and read the several paragraphs following that heading.) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT[/url] (I find this article particularly good) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT[/url] [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MEMBCHR.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MEMBCHR.TXT[/url] [/quote] Sorry what are these links for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 heh oops... sorry, should have explained. They are links to articles about salvation outside the Church. Dave posted a great article and I figured I'd offer some more sources to back him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 You can also go to this link: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=7728[/url] PhatCatholic has done a great job of compiling links to articles about Salvation outside the Church (among many other topics!) If you scroll down about halfway you will find the section of links to articles pertaining to Salvation outside the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 In amarkich's defense, just because he (or she) has a faulty understanding of the dogma that the Church is necessary for salvation (no doubt the result of the pernicious influence of traditionalists, so-called), doesn't mean he is a heretic and can't receive the sacraments. On the contrary, I would highly encourage him to avail himself of them as much as possible while taking a serious look at modern Catholic theology, which is not, as the traditionalists claim, "modernist" (I put it in quotes because, although people throw this word around a lot, I'm not sure they know what it actually means regarding the actual philosophical system known as modernism). The Catholic Church [i]is [/i]necessary for salvation, as modern Catholic theologians affirm. However, they also are quick to point out that all people baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (i.e., Protestant and Orthodox Christians) are sons and daughters of the Church. Unless they were at one point Catholic, their heresy is only material and therefore not sinful. Moreover, even non-Christians can be saved through a baptism of desire if their ignorance of the true religion is through no fault of their own (because they've never been preached to or because there was a grave obstacle which prevented them from believing in any preaching which they did receive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 J_Calvin, the Catholic Church's authentic teaching is about half way between the Feenyite position and the modernist position. The Catholic Church is a necessary means of salvation, and no one can be saved outside of her, with no exceptions. The only way to join the Catholic Church is through baptism. However, contrary to the Feenyite position, water is not the only method available; in extraordinary circumstances this may be replaced by a baptism by desire or a baptism by blood. If, for example, a catechumenate were to be martyred before being water baptised his blood would wash away his sins instead of the sacramental water. Also, if someone who explicitly wished to join the Catholic Church died before he was able to do so he could be saved by a baptism of desire. All Protestant children who are validly baptized become members of the Catholic Church until such time as they reach the age of reason and consciously reject her. Due to invincible ignorance, Protestant children who reach the age of reason will not be guilty of this sin of heresy/schism, however since as stated above the Catholic Church is a necessary means of salvation it will simply be morally impossible for them to remain in a state of grace throughout their adult life. In addition to Protestants, anyone who explicitly rejects the Catholic Church ipso facto excludes himself from her membership and thus from salvation. Where the teaching gets a bit complicated is with people who never hear the gospel and never really have an opportunity to accept or reject the Catholic Church, for example with people who live in predominantly Muslim countries. It is Catholic teaching that we can hold out hope that somehow God will make it possible for such persons to recieve a baptism by desire and thus join the Catholic Church and be saved. How He might do this is something we cannot know; perhaps He might send an angel or grant a vision, or He might just use something more mundane like the ordinary operation of grace on the soul. But the point is, such persons are led by God to embrace truth (even if they're not exactly sure what it is) and reject error, and are not saved as Muslims, Buddhists, etc. but as Catholics (it is assumed that if such a person were to hear the gospel, he would exclaim "So THAT's what I've been looking for!") The last group which I should mention is isolated Christian communities which are out of contact with the Catholic Church. Their baptisms make their people members of the Catholic Church and since they may never explicitly her such persons can of course be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hananiah, would you mind giving us a brief explanation of the modernist position just for clarification? I think it would be convenient considering we're talking about the actual Church teaching, the Feenyite position, and the modernist position. Thanks! God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I don't know about modernist, but a post-modernist perspective would be that all paths (including, presumably, the Catholic Church, although most post-modernists would probably consider that an extremely undesirable group as it is dogmatic and thoroughly [i]pre[/i]-modernist) to the Ultimate (they would certainly not restrict religious/spiritual/supernatural experience to communion with God) are equally valid. Everything is a matter of personal opinion and perspective. Whatever works for you, works. There is no absolute truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='Chrysologus' date='Jun 29 2004, 11:57 PM'] There is no absolute truth. [/quote] Um, wrong-o! The Absolute Truth is a complex Truth and not fully understood/comprehended/ or communicated by humanity. This goes as well as the understanding of membership in the Church, which is understood all members of the Body of Christ. Once Grace of Faith is recieved, it is only our conscience rejection of Truth/Good/God that seperates us. The less Grace recieved, the easier to seperate ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Um, you know I was just describing what post-modernists believe, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hananiah, I have a quick question as a follow up to your post. I agree absolutely with everything that you have said so far. But it draws up a question that I hope you can answer: It is absolutely necessary that you be a member of Christ's Church in order to obtain salvation. But if the only way that one can become a member of the Catholic Church is via baptism (be it water, blood, or desire) doesn't that lead one to a heretical conclusion? I was under the impression that it is heretical and would make a person anathema to say that God is "bound by the Sacraments." If the only way for God to allow someone into the Catholic Church is via Baptism, doesn't that cause Him to be "bound by the Sacraments?" I know that my logic is wrong, and that the Church has answered my question somewhere, but I was simply hoping you would know. Thanks a ton! - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jun 29 2004, 11:32 PM'] Hananiah, would you mind giving us a brief explanation of the modernist position just for clarification? [/quote] What I consider the modernist position is the position which holds that baptized Christians (Protestants, Eastern Orthodox) remain members of the Catholic Church after they reach the age of reason and reject her, that Muslims, Buddhists, etc. can recieve a baptism by desire without rejecting the erroneous tenets of their religion, that the only people EENS excludes from salvation are those who recognize the Catholic Church as Christ's Church yet remain outside of her anyway(about 10 people in all of human history). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 30 2004, 09:33 AM'] I was under the impression that it is heretical and would make a person anathema to say that God is "bound by the Sacraments." [/quote] Well, God is bound by His words, since He cannot lie. And He did say that "unless a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Somehow original sin has to get washed away. I would take the phrase "God is not bound by His sacraments" to mean that He doesn't need the ceremony and the water, but He can do it another way if He so desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 30 2004, 09:33 AM'] It is absolutely necessary that you be a member of Christ's Church in order to obtain salvation. But if the only way that one can become a member of the Catholic Church is via baptism (be it water, blood, or desire) doesn't that lead one to a heretical conclusion? [/quote] [i]perfect [/i]membership is obtained through water baptism. imperfect membership is obtained through the other measures that have been explained (christian baptism in other denominations, martyrdom, desiring to be Catholic, invincible ignorance, desire to know the truth as it is presented to you, however limited) [quote]I was under the impression that it is heretical and would make a person anathema to say that God is "bound by the Sacraments." If the only way for God to allow someone into the Catholic Church is via Baptism, doesn't that cause Him to be "bound by the Sacraments?"[/quote] this again pertains to perfect communion w/ the church, not communion in general. also, it is not God who is bound by the sacraments, it is us. God can save a man however he wishes. however, so that we may know what is necessary for salvation, he has provided for us the [i]normative [/i]way, which is baptism. [quote]I know that my logic is wrong, and that the Church has answered my question somewhere, but I was simply hoping you would know. Thanks a ton! - Your Brother in Christ, Jeff[/quote] i hope i have answered your questions as well. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts