Aloysius Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 aside from all that jazz about we produced the Bible (which is all true, just not my point) i wanna know why WE have to provide defensive Biblical references. i mean, they're the one makin the accusation, is not the burden of proof on them? why can't i say to a protestant "Provide a Biblical quote that says praying to the saints or Mary is wrong" but He can say "Provide a Biblical quotation that says you can pray to the saints or Mary" the truth is, there really is no solid Biblical citation that could prove either point. which is true? if we go by the Bible alone, then neither is true. Thus we both can and cannot pray to the saints and Mary. "the Body of Christ is not seperated by death. We are all to help one another, and this obligation is in no way dissolved by death." ~Aloysius (me) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OR!!!!!!!!! "Why can't we just go directly to Jesus?" ~Other People are not both logics sound? do they not both make sense? so WHICH ONE IS TRUE? there is only 1 truth. If you argue with that, i will not even try to talk 2 u, u are too far off into the 'new age' deepend. soooo... what is the truth? only two things I know of are identified as truth. Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Light The Church is the pillar and fire of truth so is not the Church the pillar of Christ, with authority to decide in cases just as these as it is guided by the Holy Spirit now i know the non-Catholics are prolly like, yeah, the same Catholic mumbo jumbo we've heard b4. but really think about it. Reread this. Reread it again. Pray about it and really ask yourself and ask Jesus how you are to determine which is the correct interpretation, which is the correct logic, WHAT IS TRUE? Pax et Amo Christi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 I don't think anyone's here to try and prove you wrong, just to ask you why you believe what you believe. Besides, if it's not in the bible, why bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 "If it's not in the Bible, why bother?" James 18:32 oh wait, there aren't 18 chapters in James or 32 verses in the 18th chapter for that matter. Oh yeah, now i remember, that's not in the Bible, so i'm not gonna bother srry i culdn't resist B) Pax et Amo Christi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 But in answer to your question about praying to saints, I don't think God smiles on us trying to talk to dead people (see 1 Samuel 28) And it's even worse with the whole Mary thing, I mean, yes, she was an amesome servant of God, but that doesn't mean she should be worshipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 "If it's not in the Bible, why bother?" James 18:32 oh wait, there aren't 18 chapters in James or 32 verses in the 18th chapter for that matter. Oh yeah, now i remember, that's not in the Bible, so i'm not gonna bother srry i culdn't resist B) Pax et Amo Christi! What??? [me]is confused[/me] What are you trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 Mary is not worshipped We talk 2 saints through GOd imagine all the saints of Heaven in the beatific vision staring upon the Sacred Face of Jesus. All of the sudden a prayer is lifted up to Jesus. He prays for an intention and asks for the intercession of.. say.. St. Francis. St. Francis steps up overjoyed that He should be able to take part in answering a prayer. By the power of God the prayer is answered, the pray-er is inspired by St. Francis's love of God, St. Francis is overjoyed to have helped his fellow man and serve his God through that, God is overjoyed that St. Francis has helped the least of his brothers and therefore done service to his God. Pax et Amo Christi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Light I think the correct quote would be "life", not "light", but yes, that's right. The Church is the pillar and fire of truth The word of God is truth, and I'm going to test anything that any teaching says against that. (1 John 4:1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 the 1 Samuel 28 thing.. a medium is used. The Catholic Church, the Holy Scriptures, and Sacred Tradition all condemn the use of mediums to speak 2 the dead. none of those three condemn asking a saint in heaven to pray for you. Two totally different things. Pax et Amo Christi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Mary is not worshipped We talk 2 saints through GOd imagine all the saints of Heaven in the beatific vision staring upon the Sacred Face of Jesus. All of the sudden a prayer is lifted up to Jesus. He prays for an intention and asks for the intercession of.. say.. St. Francis. St. Francis steps up overjoyed that He should be able to take part in answering a prayer. By the power of God the prayer is answered, the pray-er is inspired by St. Francis's love of God, St. Francis is overjoyed to have helped his fellow man and serve his God through that, God is overjoyed that St. Francis has helped the least of his brothers and therefore done service to his God. Pax et Amo Christi! Why do we need dead people to intercede for us??? I can talk to Jesus directly. Also, who is St Francis and all the rest of them, and can I be called St [jas] once I die? Why or why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 (edited) I think the correct quote would be "life", not "light", but yes, that's right.i always get that confused. I actually typed life first, but then i changed it. ah well, He is the Light of the world, and when i quote scripture i don't box it up in Chapters and verses, i try to do it more like the apostles did, just incorporate it into the writing. TWO LOGICS i provided in the first post "the Body of Christ is not seperated by death. We are all to help one another, and this obligation is in no way dissolved by death." ~Aloysius (me) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OR!!!!!!!!! "Why can't we just go directly to Jesus?" ~Other People they both seem substantial, i choose the former for it is the one taught by the Holy Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, that's what i believe. I donno, u're prolly dissapointed wit that answer, srry. St. Francis and such are the ones canonized by the Church. The Church makes sure that we have holy men to look up to and ask to interced for us. i am not an expert, so i ask the other Catholics to help me along, but i do think we can ask any person we believe to be in heaven to intercede for us, they all experience the beatific vision (vision of God face 2 Face) so if you're in heaven, then you can intercede for people. you can help ppl. If you are in heaven, you WILL want to help ppl. If you are in heaven, you technically are St. [Jas], for the word saint means holy, and only holy ppl can be admitted 2 heaven. The Church just gives us all these ppl that we know will be in Heaven to see the prayer. have i helped u? i hope i have, it took me a while 2 post all this. Pax et Amo Christi! Edited August 30, 2003 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Okay that makes more sense... So the people you call saints arent neccesarily anyone special, like they're no different to anyone else in heaven, but they're just examples of people who are there. (although with the whole thing about you saying we have no assurance of salvation, I dunno how you can then guarentee anyone except for Jesus is there) Okay, I understand that. Also those 2 statements you said aren't neccesarily mutually exclusive. I guess I just don't "get" why you need to pray to dead people instead of to Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 (edited) ,Aug 29 2003, 10:44 PM] Also, who is St Francis and all the rest of them, and can I be called St [jas] once I die? Why or why not? of course Jas! after you do a few miracles! :D B) I love you jas and i'm so glad your here!!! you R kewl!!! B) B) B) Edited August 30, 2003 by jmjtina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 So what you're saying is that I'm not a saint already? (regardless of any miracles GOD has done and decided to use me, not that I'VE done) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[jas] Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 I love you jas and i'm so glad your here!!! you R kewl!!! B) B) B) Thanks I feel special now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 (edited) Okay that makes more sense... So the people you call saints arent neccesarily anyone special, like they're no different to anyone else in heaven, but they're just examples of people who are there. (although with the whole thing about you saying we have no assurance of salvation, I dunno how you can then guarentee anyone except for Jesus is there) Okay, I understand that. Also those 2 statements you said aren't neccesarily mutually exclusive. I guess I just don't "get" why you need to pray to dead people instead of to Jesus. i don't NEED to pray 2 dead ppl. I just wanna keep in touch with the Body of Christ. These ppl are eternally in the presence of God Almighty, the Creator of all things! not having them included in the body of believers who share in the breaking of the Bread, prayer for one another, and Christian fellowship would be a big mistake! these are the people who made it! are we gonna be like, alright, u succeeded in gettin into heaven so now we're gonna exlude u from the Church. so, it's not necessary, but it helps with Christian unity, and it definitely helps my spiritual life. well, at least this was a positive thread where views were shared and understanding was accomplished! Pax et Amo Christi! Edited August 30, 2003 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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