Council of Trent

[wokespacejesuit]

Who has read the Council of Trent? I am reading it today and came across this banger of a canon proclamation. 

Quote

CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Intense! 

[Guest]

Things like this is why the Reformation was needed and was a blessing.

[dUSt]

I don’t think “let him be anathema” is the best way to word things nowadays but I don’t disagree with virginity and celibacy being a higher calling than marriage. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, dUSt said:

but I don’t disagree with virginity and celibacy being a higher calling than marriage. 

I don't think I agree with you but don't feel strongly enough to say you're definitely wrong. The problem I have is when you add on believe this to be 100% fact or go to hell. Especially on something as trivial as this. I think a mother/wife having a child/children and loving them and raising them is one of the "best" and "blessed" things a female can do. Same with a male/husband who loves his family and children as a dad. I get the Church has the right to bind and loose. But I'm not convinced a woman being a virgin and never having sex makes her life better and more blessed than loving mother's who give birth and raise children. Unless you're the Virgin Mary. And when you throw in the "believe this or go to hell" I'm glad there was a Reformation. I pray Protestants come into the fullness of truth. But statements/actions like this put things into context and show why history happened the way it did.

[Guest]

Charity trumps all

[Guest]

Bless Up

[chrysostom]

It's simply agreeing with St Paul's admonition. What's the problem?

[Seven77]

Whoa, calm down anyone… Higher vocation certainly does not mean better vocation! it is higher because there is no marriage giving in marriage in heaven...  that will have been fulfilled, so it follows that those who have vocations to the religious life, and priesthood are following the higher vocation… It's really simple if you think about it. No big deal.

 

19 hours ago, Josh said:

Things like this is why the Reformation was needed and was a blessing.

Well, I would put it this way: God brings good out of everything. It wasn't so much of an ordained blessing, it was a permitted blessing…That is, the thing itself isn't necessarily a blessing (Can't really say it is because the gravity is, it splintered the Western Church), but what came out of it and the truth contained in the thing, was the blessing. Anyway, in a weird way, we can better appreciate the eventual reunification of churches after the fact…

Edited July 15, 2019 by Seven77

[Seven77]

Just to add a little edit and clarify, higher vocation does not mean better vocation in our subjective understanding of better… What I mean is, it is better for some to be married, and it is better for some to be unmarried… St. Paul says as much). 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

Just to add a little edit and clarify, higher vocation does not mean better vocation in our subjective understanding of better… What I mean is, it is better for some to be married, and it is better for some to be unmarried… St. Paul says as much). 

Well CANON X said -If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not BETTER and MORE BLESSED to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Guest

[Seven77]

1 minute ago, Josh said:

Well CANON X said -If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not BETTER and MORE BLESSED to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema.

Well, it is better… Objectively speaking, because it is higher. Only in that sense is it better. And obviously more blessed. That should not be taken as a diss of the married state because God instituted it as the original vocation.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Seven77 said:

Well, it is better… Objectively speaking, because it is higher. Only in that sense is it better. And obviously more blessed. That should not be taken as a diss of the married state because God instituted it as the original vocation.

Not convinced it's better or more blessed. If we're speaking of Jesus or Mary then I agree. But there's plenty of evidence if we include everyone else it's not necessarily the case. Man thank you God for the Reformation. It truly was needed. Although I'm not Protestant I'm glad the escape route is there if needed.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Guest

[Seven77]

Think about this way, what is the Council of Trent addressing anyway? Many of the claims and objections of Martin Luther, right? One of the claims of Martin Luther was that marriage was better, objectively, and he kind of renounced the vows to celibacy, ultimately breaking them himself. This Canon of the Council  is speaking to this, and only to this, really.

 That's the context…

Also, I'm not sure that you should say thank you God for the Reformation when he did not cause it nor "want it "to happen? More like thank you for allowing it to happen, and that it was unfortunate that it happened because of the abuses that shouldn't even have happened… Kind of like the exile intoBabylon for the Israelites ... they wouldn't have needed to make the reparation, face the difficult suffering, etc.

I get your frustration though. Peace.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Seven77

[Guest]

Celibacy and virginity is a particularly blessed state of life because it is outside the norm for human nature.  It takes a special Grace to embrace it for life.  Marriage is the normal state of life and marriage has its own special Graces and blessings.

Celibacy and virginity as superior to marriage is the theological and objective determination.  However, nothing is superior to the Will of God and so one's particular vocation, no matter what that might be, is the subjective and nothing can be higher or more blessed than to live out God's Will for a person.

It is a virtue to understand and embrace God's Will for oneself and that is in the order of Charity and Love of God, which always flows over as love of neighbour.  There can be no real Love of God if one does not love one's neighbour.

Edited July 16, 2019 by BarbaraTherese

[Seven77]

1 hour ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Celibacy and virginity is a particularly blessed state of life because it is outside the norm for human nature.  It takes a special Grace to embrace it for life.  Marriage is the normal state of life and marriage has its own special Graces and blessings.

Celibacy and virginity as superior to marriage is the theological and objective determination.  However, nothing is superior to the Will of God and so one's particular vocation, no matter what that might be, is the subjective and nothing can be higher or more blessed than to live out God's Will for a person.

It is a virtue to understand and embrace God's Will for oneself and that is in the order of Charity and Love of God, which always flows over as love of neighbour.  There can be no real Love of God if one does not love one's neighbour.

Well said and charitably explained!